Let's talk about Brandywines

[travis]

Originally Posted by camochef

Earl's Faux, Ed's Millennium, and a few other, in my opinion, really are Brandywines, that had other names attached to them over the years. Someday, someone might do DNA testing on them and we'll have a whole new ballgame!
Camo

[Sun City Linda]

Originally Posted by dfollett

In my opinion, the real arbiter of what determines if a 'strain' should be identified as a separate strain is time - time and people. If it has nothing special to offer that anyone cares about, it becomes irrelevant and goes away. If it sticks around - if it is passed around by advocates who have grown it and continue to recommend it - If it continues to be talked about and promoted and doesn't go away - it certainly deserves to be identified by something to differentiate it from the run-of-the-mill version of the same variety. That may or may not meet a rigorous definition of what a 'Strain' is, but so what? To answer the question that was asked several times - (if I grow some that show significantly lower production year after year, by the same token do I have a different strain?). Sure, but who cares? I'm sure there have been many folks who have tried to name their own 'strain' of 'Cherokee' this or 'Brandywine' whatever, that have never got traction in the growing community.

The example that has been used (or abused, depending on your point of view) in this dialog - Brandywine Cowlick's - certainly passes that test with flying colors. It is obviously different (and clearly better by many folk's definition) than other other Brandywines in some substantial ways. I want a way for the growing community to be able to identify and differentiate that from the run-of-the-mill. I much prefer identifying it as a different strain of Brandywine than renaming it - there is too much of that as it is. I have only grown two Brandywines - one, identified only as 'Brandywine' from a nursery was late, slow and produced 2 tomatoes. The other - a Brandywine Cowlick's I received in Tormato's swap, produced much earlier - by 2-3 weeks - and with significantly higher production. I want a way to differentiate the two.

I'm not a scientist or geneticist, but why wouldn't significantly more productivity (and earliness) justify calling it a strain?

Nuff said.

And well said. The market works so much better than self appointed Tomato Police!

[travis]

Allow me to re-enter this discussion without comment regarding Cowlick's or Camo, which became a rather sensitive subject earlier in the thread.

Rather allow me to convey some observations about "strains" and just the simple variability within an assumed "stable" variety.

In 2005, at IDig tomato forum, there was a discussion basically lead by Carolyn Male regarding Indian Stripe tomato, a variety she had obtained from Donna Nelson, who in turn had obtained seeds from her former neighbor, Clyde Burson, Sr. of Strong, Arkansas.

Carolyn basically was praising the value of Indian Stripe, and mourning the fact that of all those to whom she had sent seeds via the SSE Yearbook, none had relisted the seeds in subsequent issues of the Yearbook.

Since Cherokee Purple was my favorite tomato at that time, and Carolyn described Indian Stripe as very similar and possibly higher yielding, I ordered some seeds from Victory Seed Company, whose seed lot was an increase of the seeds originally obtained from Carolyn Male via Donna Nelson, originating with Clyde Burson, Sr.

I assume Victory's seeds were grown in either 2004 or 2005, as the packet bore the message "packed for 2006" the year in which I actually grew them out.

Following the advice of several of the more experienced members of the tomato forum, I grew 10 plants to assure I got at least a reasonable mix of the varietal genetics when I saved the seeds, which I intended to list in the 2007 Yearbook. This was before I began saving seeds from individual plants, and marking each seed lot with notations regarding individual plant and fruit traits, as I do nowadays. Bear with me here ...

So, right off the bat, I noticed very slight differences between the 10 plants once they were well underway in the garden soil. One plant was just pitiful, and I yanked it before it came to fruit. It was just disease prone (early blight) and just not an vibrant grower.

When the other 9 plants began to set fruit, I noticed significant differences between several of the plants. Some plants were very heat tolerant (it was a hot and humid summer), and others just did not set fruit very well. Of course, there is the issue of excess nitrogen, but I always try to apply my fertilizers equally. However, I cannot claim infallibility in this regard.

Anyhow, when the fruit began to ripen, the real differences began to emerge. One plant had pink tomatoes with none of the signature chlorophyll retention that defines a "purple" tomato. Another of the plants had the uniform ripening trait (no dark green shoulders) and none of the green streaking of the pericarp radiating longitudinally downward from the shoulders. The other seven plants made tomatoes that matched the description Carolyn Male had given for Indian Stripe ... more fruit per cluster, more uniform shape and size, slightly smaller average size, and a bit lighter coloration than Cherokee Purple in all those regards.

However, two particular plants stood out in superiority of production, longevity of production, and longevity of vine life. (Does that match some of the traits discussed earlier about two other "strains" of established varieties discussed earlier in this thread?)

I only saved seeds from three of those original 10 plants: the pink off-type, and the two superior plants. And that is when I began saving seeds from individual plants, storing them in separate packs, and labeling the packs with notations to differentiate the plant and fruit traits.

In the case of the two "true-to-type" Indian Stripe seed lots, I labeled one "ISA" and the other "ISB" originally as simply a note to myself. One plant made a bit larger fruit than the other. Simple as that. Two batches of seeds from the two best plants with the best examples of Indian Stripe traits as I knew at that time ... from the first 10 plants I ever grew of that variety.

Yes, some of the seeds got out to others labeled as ISA and ISB, sorry about that. The seeds listed in the Yearbook were a mix of the two lots.

In subsequent years, I separately grew and separately saved ISA and ISB plants and seeds. The traits I noticed the first year (2006) continued in subsequent years. One line consistently made slightly larger fruit, and the other line consistently made smaller (not much smaller) and smoother fruit. They all tasted the same to me, and Indian Stripe became my favorite tomato over Cherokee Purple.

Now, in 2008, I think it was, Clyde Burson, Jr. posted a couple of messages either at IDig or maybe it was Dave's Garden about Indian Stripe tomato, and I asked him for some of his dad's original seeds. He graciously sent me seeds for Indian Stripe and several other varieties that came directly from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer (the elder Mr. Burson passed away in November 2008).

This message is getting rather long, so I will cut it short by not going into great detail about what emerged from those direct supply seeds. Simply put, the packet carried a note in pencil "Indian Zebra" and Clyde,Jr.'s accompanying note said he never heard his dad call the tomato anything other than Indian Zebra. I say that not to start another argument, only as a historical note pertinent to my observations about "strains" and "re-naming."

Last observational comment: The plants I grew from the seeds I got directly from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer (in 2008, first grown out in 2009) INITIALLY and CONTINUALLY have produced tomatoes SIGNIFICANTLY larger than the Indian Stripe seeds I bought from Victory Seed Co. in 2005 (first grown out in 2006). AND consistently more evenly sized, smoother, as large or larger on average, and JUST AS DARK as any Cherokee Purple tomatoes I have ever grown, and I've grown plenty of all three types (Cherokee Purple, Indian Stripe, and Indian Zebra).

My question: Is anything I've grown described above under the name Indian Stripe or Indian Zebra worthy of a new name (or even separate names "Indian Stripe" vs "Indian Zebra") or an appendaged "strain" designation for traits that may contradict the original description from the person who introduced the variety to the greater tomato growing world, or which may contradict a description give at Tatiana's, however slight or dramatic the variations may be? Just asking ...

[KarenO]

LindyAdele, back to your original question, I think with space for only 8 large fruited plants, you might have better luck with a tomato considered midseason. Brandywine, all "strains" would likely be later in your Canadian garden than you might wish and despite all the information posted here, if you look at the geographic location of all of these posters who have had much success with various "strains" of brandywine, they are from warmer zones. I have had success in my garden with Stump of the world which is a large flavourful PL pink beefsteak as well as Giant Belgium, bear claw and others. Tania offers many large fruited varieties of pink tomatoes originating in Russia, Ukraine and eastern Europe that may be more suited to a Canadian garden. PM me and I can send you a few others to try.
Of course, the only way to know for sure is to try but you may be disappointed in a late variety like brandywine, unless you can get a head start with a greenhouse.
KarenO

[Blueaussi]

Let me try this.

Dwarf Wild Fred has produced like crazy for me the last two seasons, but no one ever lists it as one of the most productive of the dwarf tomato project releases. So, I start telling every one I have seeds for Blueaussi WF. WooHoo! Aren't I just the kewlest thing ever?

However, how ethical is it for me to take all the hard work of the folks who participated in producing a stable variety through the dwarf project and slap a new name on it just because I had a couple of productive seasons? And how accurate would it be?

This is the crux of the biscuit for me. It's not about Camo or any of the Brandywine* strains. I have nothing but respect for him, and his knowledge of tomatoes and the growing of the aforementioned plants is awesome! It's a larger question about everybody and their sister declaring every anomaly of tomato or pepper growth a new strain or variety. I freely admit that, coming from a science background, I find the lack of even an agreed upon definition of what constitutes a new strain off putting. However, I also find that far too many people are more interested making themselves sound important than contributing something that is actually new or different to the gardening community.

I agree that there will probably never be a hard and fast definition of what constitutes a new strain, which is why I believe having these conversations is important. We all need, from time to time, to rethink the attributes that would make an exceptional plant enough of an improvement over its predecessors to constitute a new strain or variety.


*I think Brandywines are vastly overrated, and I don't grow them.

[Sun City Linda]

My answer is that you get to decide what to call your seeds and strains and grow outs. I may or may not like it or agree with you but as I said before, we have not yet appointed tomato police. When folks blatantly abuse this and start renaming known varieties for financial gain, as has happened we can post about it and call attention to it, etc. and avoid them as a seed source.

I know others may disagree and want to create a lot of rules for the rest of us to follow. Its really known of their business. Short of creating a governing body to control the seed supply, which I understand some countries have done, we are left with individual discretion.

[KarenO]

I wish all you folks would look at the original question from a new-ish tomato gardener and member and not completely hijack her thread with all this unrelated arguing. start your own thread next time.
KarenO
who thinks spring should come soon to give tomato gardeners something better to do than bicker on TV. My opinion.

[Blueaussi]

You know, "tomato police" is a very prejudicial term. If there is going to be a reasoned discussion on what constitutes a new strain or variety; and that is what I would like to have, we all need to try for more neutral language.

I include myself in that. I should not have included the line" WooHoo! Aren't I just the kewlest thing ever?" in my post.

[Sun City Linda]

Sorry, I thought tomato police was quite descriptive. Lets try this. I think most of us are unhappy when we see posts about various governments taking over seed banks and otherwise taking control of the seed supply? So lets say all of us on this thread agree to a definition of what constitutes a "new strain" Short of creating some form of governing agency, union dues, etc. where do we go with that besides beating up other members who do not agree with us? Its like the tomato color chart I mentioned earlier. Great if it works FOR YOU but I'm calling my tomato GOLD!

It certainly seems to me that the individual freedom I suggest is the closest thing to how family heirlooms got created in the first place, with their bumps, worts and differences in regional performance. If I want a tomato that will yield a conforming type of fruit most of the time in most climates, I think that is called an All American Hybrid.

[camochef]

Allow me say one more thing about Cowlick's Brandywine.
Never have I tried to claim it was a strain or anything other than a Pink Brandywine.

The only place I can find it being called that is here in this forum on this thread, by the person that's complaining the most about it. The only other place is on Tatiana's website where she incorrectly calls it a strain. She also has a statement giving its "history" which uses my name instead of "camochef". I never intended my name to be associated with Cowlick's and was quite annoyed when I discovered it. Knowing who submitted the seeds to her, I assume he also wrote the information. Which I am not pleased about. This occurred many years ago and I didn't find out about it to much later, so it's water under the bridge now.

I'm already seeing things being said in this thread that are mis-quotes of what I said. Apparently, there are people out there that cannot read or at least comprehend what they read. So be that, too. I try to be polite and complete in my answers to others, but the world has changed much in the past ten years or so, and I just don't need the aggravation. Therefore, I intend to leave this forum, like many others in the past. Hope all real gardeners have a great season ahead and the aggregators reap what they sow!
Goodbye
Camo

[Tormato]

I'm hoping there will never be DNA tests.
As this thread is too entertaining.
Who gets the Oscar for best supporting structure?

[Sun City Linda]

Oh Camo I hope you will not let the few contentious voices drive you off. And anyways, as you know, they are everywhere.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by travis

Allow me to re-enter this discussion without comment regarding Cowlick's or Camo, which became a rather sensitive subject earlier in the thread.

Rather allow me to convey some observations about "strains" and just the simple variability within an assumed "stable" variety.

In 2005, at IDig tomato forum, there was a discussion basically lead by Carolyn Male regarding Indian Stripe tomato, a variety she had obtained from Donna Nelson, who in turn had obtained seeds from her former neighbor, Clyde Burson, Sr. of Strong, Arkansas.

Carolyn basically was praising the value of Indian Stripe, and mourning the fact that of all those to whom she had sent seeds via the SSE Yearbook, none had relisted the seeds in subsequent issues of the Yearbook.

Since Cherokee Purple was my favorite tomato at that time, and Carolyn described Indian Stripe as very similar and possibly higher yielding, I ordered some seeds from Victory Seed Company, whose seed lot was an increase of the seeds originally obtained from Carolyn Male via Donna Nelson, originating with Clyde Burson, Sr.

I assume Victory's seeds were grown in either 2004 or 2005, as the packet bore the message "packed for 2006" the year in which I actually grew them out.

Following the advice of several of the more experienced members of the tomato forum, I grew 10 plants to assure I got at least a reasonable mix of the varietal genetics when I saved the seeds, which I intended to list in the 2007 Yearbook. This was before I began saving seeds from individual plants, and marking each seed lot with notations regarding individual plant and fruit traits, as I do nowadays. Bear with me here ...

So, right off the bat, I noticed very slight differences between the 10 plants once they were well underway in the garden soil. One plant was just pitiful, and I yanked it before it came to fruit. It was just disease prone (early blight) and just not an vibrant grower.

When the other 9 plants began to set fruit, I noticed significant differences between several of the plants. Some plants were very heat tolerant (it was a hot and humid summer), and others just did not set fruit very well. Of course, there is the issue of excess nitrogen, but I always try to apply my fertilizers equally. However, I cannot claim infallibility in this regard.

Anyhow, when the fruit began to ripen, the real differences began to emerge. One plant had pink tomatoes with none of the signature chlorophyll retention that defines a "purple" tomato. Another of the plants had the uniform ripening trait (no dark green shoulders) and none of the green streaking of the pericarp radiating longitudinally downward from the shoulders. The other seven plants made tomatoes that matched the description Carolyn Male had given for Indian Stripe ... more fruit per cluster, more uniform shape and size, slightly smaller average size, and a bit lighter coloration than Cherokee Purple in all those regards.

However, two particular plants stood out in superiority of production, longevity of production, and longevity of vine life. (Does that match some of the traits discussed earlier about two other "strains" of established varieties discussed earlier in this thread?)

I only saved seeds from three of those original 10 plants: the pink off-type, and the two superior plants. And that is when I began saving seeds from individual plants, storing them in separate packs, and labeling the packs with notations to differentiate the plant and fruit traits.

In the case of the two "true-to-type" Indian Stripe seed lots, I labeled one "ISA" and the other "ISB" originally as simply a note to myself. One plant made a bit larger fruit than the other. Simple as that. Two batches of seeds from the two best plants with the best examples of Indian Stripe traits as I knew at that time ... from the first 10 plants I ever grew of that variety.

Yes, some of the seeds got out to others labeled as ISA and ISB, sorry about that. The seeds listed in the Yearbook were a mix of the two lots.

In subsequent years, I separately grew and separately saved ISA and ISB plants and seeds. The traits I noticed the first year (2006) continued in subsequent years. One line consistently made slightly larger fruit, and the other line consistently made smaller (not much smaller) and smoother fruit. They all tasted the same to me, and Indian Stripe became my favorite tomato over Cherokee Purple.

Now, in 2008, I think it was, Clyde Burson, Jr. posted a couple of messages either at IDig or maybe it was Dave's Garden about Indian Stripe tomato, and I asked him for some of his dad's original seeds. He graciously sent me seeds for Indian Stripe and several other varieties that came directly from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer (the elder Mr. Burson passed away in November 2008).

This message is getting rather long, so I will cut it short by not going into great detail about what emerged from those direct supply seeds. Simply put, the packet carried a note in pencil "Indian Zebra" and Clyde,Jr.'s accompanying note said he never heard his dad call the tomato anything other than Indian Zebra. I say that not to start another argument, only as a historical note pertinent to my observations about "strains" and "re-naming."

Last observational comment: The plants I grew from the seeds I got directly from Clyde Burson, Sr.'s freezer (in 2008, first grown out in 2009) INITIALLY and CONTINUALLY have produced tomatoes SIGNIFICANTLY larger than the Indian Stripe seeds I bought from Victory Seed Co. in 2005 (first grown out in 2006). AND consistently more evenly sized, smoother, as large or larger on average, and JUST AS DARK as any Cherokee Purple tomatoes I have ever grown, and I've grown plenty of all three types (Cherokee Purple, Indian Stripe, and Indian Zebra).

My question: Is anything I've grown described above under the name Indian Stripe or Indian Zebra worthy of a new name (or even separate names "Indian Stripe" vs "Indian Zebra") or an appendaged "strain" designation for traits that may contradict the original description from the person who introduced the variety to the greater tomato growing world, or which may contradict a description give at Tatiana's, however slight or dramatic the variations may be? Just asking ...

Here we go again.

Bill, first, I never mourned about IS not being relisted in SSE Yearbooks. I think I first listed it in 2003 and it's been listed every year since then and still is in the current Yearbook.

I still believe what Donna Nelson told me based on what Burson SR told her that it was called by Burson Sr either Indian Stripe or Indian Zebra by him and when I asked Donna what I should call it she said either one. I chose Indian Stripe since at that time there were many varieties that had zebra as part of a variety name.

I never remember Burson Jr posting anywhere. You contacted him directly, I didn't know that, but others told me you had. It never made sense to me that Burson Jr didn't know the two names involved that his own father used and had told Donna so.

After seeds leave my hands I can't vouch for them and now I'm referring to Mike at Victory seeds who does his own seed production along with one of his family members. What might have happened there in terms of subtle crossing, possible mutation, I don't know and apparently Mike himself didn't know.

The first person I sent IS seeds to was Craig Lehoullier for him to compare with Cherokee Purple and he agreed it was very similar except for the subtle differences that have been noted by me and also others. Here is Tania's link:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Indian_Stripe

Tania called it black but I never did and I didn't call CP black nor Black from Tula, etc, black. I referred to the so called pink/blacks that had a clear epidermis and the red/blacks that had a yellow epidermis.

As for your last paragraph, no, I don't think that either IS or IZ deserve a new name based on what I wrote above about facts not known.

I prefer to call IS a VERSION, not a strain, of Cherokee Purple and have done so for many years now.Several years ago I sent my brother in NC my seeds for IS since he lived not far from where John Green found and sent to Craig L seeds for what Craig subsequently called Cherokee Purple.

Carolyn

[travis]

Carolyn, I am greatly happy that you are recovering and able to post online once more.

However, I think you largely missed the point of my most recent post. And I was only using my experience with Indian Stripe as an anecdotal example of the point I am trying to make about renaming varieties, or appending another name to denote "a strain."

I was in no way trying to put a burr in your saddle blanket, and I remember much of what was said about the paucity of re-listings of Indian Stripe prior to 2007, and stand by every word I have said in that post except now that I think about it, the discussion began in GardenWeb tomato forum rather than IDigMyGarden. Sorry about that error.

[LindyAdele]

Original Poster here. Wow. I'm almost sorry I asked this question! I really didn't mean to start a war... I just wanted to know if they were still a recommended variety by this group of wonderful knowledgeable gardeners! I think there is't another tomato quite as controversial as this, so probably I need to grow it in order to at least have an opinion...