When to Pull Them

[Zone9b]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

To add one more thing about the nematode problem - Today, one of the people I sold tomato plants in the solo cup stage to - told my wife how proud she is about her huge tomato plants. She went on-and-on about the different colored tomatoes and how she couldn't believe that I gave her a plant that produces so many huge tomatoes. It is a Rebel Yell.

That lady lives about 3 miles north of us. Same sandy loam on top of red clay. It made me feel so good that her plants are doing so well for her. Those are her first tomatoes grown.

That is interesting. The first time I gardened at this location I just gardened in the sand and everything did so well. I can't explain it. It never was that good again.
Larry

[AlittleSalt]

My wife and I talked about the last really good garden. It was in 2014. We bought some transplants at a shop we only shopped at that one time. (I have to tell about this shop area) It's out in the middle of nowhere with a train track nearby. All dirt and gravel road to get to it and a few houses scattered about. Corn fields and yet only one teenager about 15 years old running the greenhouse. It felt like being in, "Children of the Corn."

I remember the growing medium being odd looking and it smelled kind of sour - I think that was where we might have got the nematodes from.

[MrSalvage]

We just thinned out our row of mustard greens and added them to our compost pile.

Whats interesting to me is I found a story where the person who wrote it said. Quote: "Numerous studies have shown that live mustard plant tissues, both seeds and roots, contain compounds that work as soil bio-fumigants by killing nematodes and pathogenic fungi."

https://www.growveg.com/guides/the-b...owing-mustard/

So it looks like I might not get the benefit they offer because we cut the roots off and disposed of them. I didn't want to carry anything from my garden to the compost pile. Then of course the plants when thinned had not gone to seed either. So it's not clear to me in the way they wrote it. If the leaves & stalks would help me out or not. Plus the fact that I can't really till it under as it is a new batch of compost.

Hum...

[Zone9b]

Originally Posted by MrSalvage

We just thinned out our row of mustard greens and added them to our compost pile.
Whats interesting to me is I found a story where the person who wrote it said. Quote: "Numerous studies have shown that live mustard plant tissues, both seeds and roots, contain compounds that work as soil bio-fumigants by killing nematodes and pathogenic fungi."
https://www.growveg.com/guides/the-b...owing-mustard/
So it looks like I might not get the benefit they offer because we cut the roots off and disposed of them. I didn't want to carry anything from my garden to the compost pile. Then of course the plants when thinned had not gone to seed either. So it's not clear to me in the way they wrote it. If the leaves & stalks would help me out or not. Plus the fact that I can't really till it under as it is a new batch of compost.
Hum...

" http://www.sare.org/Learning-Center/...s-and-Mustards
What a great read. Thank you "
MrSalvage,
I read you comment and also read the article. Brassicas and Mustards
It certainly was interesting but for me it almost raises more questions than answers.
Growing cover crops, which are edible, to control nematodes certain is an intriguing idea. However, here in central Florida, the time one wants to grow a cover crop is from mid June to mid September and finding a Brassica or Mustard that would grow in that level of heat seems a bit daunting. A couple of possibles are Mustard Spinach (Tatsoi op) and Astro, Sevatica or Sylvetta Arugula, but probably long shots. I grow Broccoli in one bed and this could be rotated with beans but the bed lies idle for the summer before beans are planted in September. Does this idleness invite nematodes to return to the bed and did the Broccoli actually cause them to reduce their numbers? From my experience Brassicas including Broccoli, Kale and Brussel Sprouts are totally resistant to nematodes. Does the presence of Brassicas actually reduce the number of nematodes or is it just the fact that nematodes can't feed on them cause their numbers to decline? And for that matter when secularizing are nematodes numbers reduced entirely because of heat or is it in some part due to that fact that if the soil is kept clear of all vegetation their is nothing for them to feed on?
Thanks,
Larry

[Worth1]

Salt what would you and your wife have done if you would have looked back at your car and saw a bunch of kids standing around it with pitch forks and kitchen knives.

Worth

[Zone9b]

Is it possible that the villain (nematodes) that we can easily see their results gets blamed for more plant problems than it really causes? In particular rotting roots is sometimes blamed on nematodes but it appears to me that there are other pathogens which are know for root rotting and why are they not more likely to blame along with over watering. Smaller root balls sure that seems pretty obvious but even here it is not always true. I've grown Ultimate Opener F1 tomato variety which is not nematode resistant but it still produced a large root ball. The roots showed considerable evidence of nematodes and the plants produced few tomatoes but the root ball was large and it certainly didn't root.
Larry

[My Foot Smells]

The majority of nematodes are dioecious ; that is, the sexes are separate. Some species, however, are hermaphroditic, having both male and female reproductive organs. In dioecious species, males have a specialized spine for sexual reproduction that is used to open the female's reproductive tract and to inject sperm.

********

I guess the hermaphroditic 'todes can "do it" with themselves and multiple, but ordinarily it would take adam & eve to get the party started and then the trouble begins. What else do they have to do besides tie up roots and make babies? What is their primary function?

[creister]

Isn't RKN more prevalent in sandy soils? I thought I read that somewhere.

[Zone9b]

Originally Posted by My Foot Smells

The majority of nematodes are dioecious ; that is, the sexes are separate. Some species, however, are hermaphroditic, having both male and female reproductive organs. In dioecious species, males have a specialized spine for sexual reproduction that is used to open the female's reproductive tract and to inject sperm.

********

I guess the hermaphroditic 'todes can "do it" with themselves and multiple, but ordinarily it would take adam & eve to get the party started and then the trouble begins. What else do they have to do besides tie up roots and make babies? What is their primary function?

Does that infer that they actually need roots as a place to multiply or can they do that in a environment devoid of roots of vegetation?

"Isn't RKN more prevalent in sandy soils? I thought I read that somewhere."
The soil is sandy here but they seem to be able to easily migrate to containers or raised beds with soilless media.
Thanks,
Larry

[AlittleSalt]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Salt what would you and your wife have done if you would have looked back at your car and saw a bunch of kids standing around it with pitch forks and kitchen knives.

Worth

... I didn't take my eyes off the car while there. Across from the greenhouse was an abandoned looking auto shop with old dead cars all around it.

[AlittleSalt]

Originally Posted by MrSalvage

We just thinned out our row of mustard greens and added them to our compost pile.

Whats interesting to me is I found a story where the person who wrote it said. Quote: "Numerous studies have shown that live mustard plant tissues, both seeds and roots, contain compounds that work as soil bio-fumigants by killing nematodes and pathogenic fungi."

https://www.growveg.com/guides/the-b...owing-mustard/

So it looks like I might not get the benefit they offer because we cut the roots off and disposed of them. I didn't want to carry anything from my garden to the compost pile. Then of course the plants when thinned had not gone to seed either. So it's not clear to me in the way they wrote it. If the leaves & stalks would help me out or not. Plus the fact that I can't really till it under as it is a new batch of compost.

Hum...

That is a very interesting read.

It may have helped solve a problem we have around the main garden. The fenced in area of the garden is 45' x 45' - however there are 3' wide beds all around the outside of the fenced in area. This makes the total growing area 51' x 51'. We could grow mustard greens in those 3' wide beds. Looks like I'll be adding to the mustard greens seed packs.

Edit/added response: Isn't RKN more prevalent in sandy soils? I thought I read that somewhere.

Yes, they love sand and moisture and perfect growing soil temperatures. However, they die in Hot soil.

[Zone9b]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

That is a very interesting read.

It may have helped solve a problem we have around the main garden. The fenced in area of the garden is 45' x 45' - however there are 3' wide beds all around the outside of the fenced in area. This makes the total growing area 51' x 51'. We could grow mustard greens in those 3' wide beds. Looks like I'll be adding to the mustard greens seed packs.
Edit/added response: Isn't RKN more prevalent in sandy soils? I thought I read that somewhere.
Yes, they love sand and moisture and perfect growing soil temperatures. However, they die in Hot soil.

I found the article interesting as well, however, the article seems to indicate that there are soil bio fumigants that kill nematodes and pathogenic fungi. If you click soil biofumigants in the article it takes you a pdf which is a little more than one page.
http://tinyurl.com/hyxjdf2
The title of the pdf starts with "Research Underway " and I could be entirely wrong but it appears a bit light in substance to start hanging one's hat on as a tried and true method for controlling nematodes and fungi pathogens. However, I may give it a bit of a go myself because I wouldn't mind have some greens to eat myself.
An article that helps answer a number of the questions and comments that I made earlier is from the University of Florida which can be found at: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ng032
For example, it refers to 3 types of nematodes and one seems to explain how you can have a plant with stuby roots as a result of a nematode other than a RKN.
This article is geared to agriculture in the soil which in Florida is of 3 types.
Nematodes are a big problem in all 3, not just sand. Also, as most Florida gardeners can attest to nematodes are at the height in the fall when soil temperatures have had all summer to heat up and at their lowest in the early spring after a cool winter.
The article talks about solarization, fallow clean ground and flooding as methods of control. The article helped me get a better understanding of nasty nematodes.
Larry

[AlittleSalt]

Larry, I enjoyed reading them both. Both gave me more info.

I think through using both solarization in July and August (Or hottest part of the year) and then a biofumigant cover crop in fall and winter should help a lot.

I made the mistake of not keeping a few infected roots in the refrigerator. "Never subject the sample(s) to overheating" The samples I have are all dead as they have been in a burning pile out in the 95+ Texas heat. I learned this on the Texas Agrilife Extension Service printout that I downloaded. I would have sent $35 for no results if I had not read the instructions first.

However, I have no doubt that the roots were infected with nematodes. Whatever kind they are isn't as important to me as getting rid of as many as I possibly can.

[Zone9b]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

Larry, I enjoyed reading them both. Both gave me more info.
I think through using both solarization in July and August (Or hottest part of the year) and then a biofumigant cover crop in fall and winter should help a lot.
I made the mistake of not keeping a few infected roots in the refrigerator. "Never subject the sample(s) to overheating" The samples I have are all dead as they have been in a burning pile out in the 95+ Texas heat. I learned this on the Texas Agrilife Extension Service printout that I downloaded. I would have sent $35 for no results if I had not read the instructions first.
However, I have no doubt that the roots were infected with nematodes. Whatever kind they are isn't as important to me as getting rid of as many as I possibly can.

AlittleSalt,
Sounds like a good plan to me. Even if your Brassicas don't kill any nematodes you probably get something good to eat.
For the most part I keep my beds busy in the winter growing Brassicas, onions, lettuce etc.
Here is a reason I am a bit doubtful of Brassicas killing nematodes in a major way. In Feb 2016 I planted a Raised BED (RB) with 2 varieties of snap beans. The varieties were Espada and Crockett, both highly disease resistant. Shortly before planting these beans a harvested a quite successful crop of a major Brassica, that being Premium Crop Broccoli. The Broccoli was tightly spaced (a thing of mine) over the entire bed. There were very few weeds in the bed at time of Broccoli harvest due to the tight spacing. Therefore, if one is to assume a Brassicas omit chemicals that kill nematodes, well they should have been dead. Now my beans which I planted were not nematode resistant. In fact I know of no bush snap bean which is advertised as nematode resistant. I am not saying there are none, just that I know of none and I'm sure my 2 varieties were not resistant.
Both varieties were productive but not greatly. I got 6 pickings from Espada and 5 from Crockett. I have done better but for this crop I wanted highly disease resistance and I have no reason to think they weren't. But when I pulled the plants I observed that literally the roots of every plant had significant evidence of RKN.
My question of course is if Brassicas such as Broccoli are so good at killing nematodes, why did I see so much evidence of them on my bean roots?
I plan to grow the same 2 varieties in the fall and the RB they go into will previously have been planted with Broccoli. But given the increased pressure of nematodes in the fall, I will consider myself blessed if I get anything close to a good crop and the reason for poorer productivity will possibly but not entirely be RKN but I expect it will be a major player. Furthermore, I doubt if it will make much difference to my coming bean crop if I had a Brassica before it in the bed or Corn.
I haven't been an avid gardener for long enough to know but I am guessing that gardening like many endeavors has a fad come once in a while. Will nematode killing Brassicas be a fad? I certainly don't know. But I think I see one gardening fad fading now. I might get hate mail for this but I used to see lots of posts about the marvels of brewed compost tea and now I can't remember the last time I saw one. Maybe they are there and I just didn't see them. Certainly a possibility.
All the best,
Larry

[MrSalvage]

Margaret Tuttle McGrath from Cornell has really been a busy lady. I'm still trying to digest all of this. Believe it or not she has even more data on this.

http://tinyurl.com/gwpelj4
http://tinyurl.com/zjpc2l2
http://tinyurl.com/hfnw8em