How do the growers do it? my scraggly vines

[tcarnahan]

Hi,

I live in Northern Virginia in zone 7a. This is my second year to grow cherry tomatoes from seed. I always get “unrulely” vines (long and unable to stand up on their own) by the time of planting outside.

I have always wondered how the commercial growers are able to bring tomato plants to Home Depot in the condition they are in. They are always stocky and short in their small packs) and healthy). I start growing cherry tomatoes in the 3rd week of February. By the time the first of May comes around, my plants are 1 to 2 feet long and laying all over. They don’t stand up like the commercial ones. I don’t feed they anything … I just water them. I start them in peat pellets with growing medium (peat moss and perilight) and after the first true leaves show, I transplant them into 3 inch pots. I have them in a room that is 68 to 72 degrees. I have a fluorescent grow light that I have on a timer. I have the timer set to keep the lights on 8 hours a day.

I just don’t understand what I am doing wrong. The scraggly long vines I transplant outside are difficult to handle and break easily.

Question: what should I be doing in order to get stocky, short tomato vines?

Thanks,

Tom

[tnkrer]

My experience has been that grow lights is the most important factor to avoid spindly/leggy seedlings. Make sure that your grow light has enough lumens for your plants, the light is not too far from the plants and increase the duration. My set up is 4 T8 lights for about 30-40 tomato plants. In the beginning lights are on for about 16 hours, then reduced to 8 hours during the hardening process. (They get natural light during that time)
Here is the fixture I use -> 4-Light Grey Heavy Duty Fluorescent Shoplight
I can move the fixture so that the light is always 1-2 inches from the top of the seedling.

Here is a link to my setup

Also caress your tomato seedlings a couple times every day . They are sensual beings.

(Look up Thigmotropism)

[Tracydr]

I think the big growers also use a growth inhibitor.

[tcarnahan]

tnkrer,

Thanks for the quick reply.

I have a grow light set up very similar to that. My lights consist of only 2 tubes, but all the tomatoes I grow fit directly under the lights and they get a minimum of 8 hours. I have the lights on a chain so that I can keep them an inch above the plants.

I must not caress them enough ...

Except that the cherry tomatoes I like don't come to Home Depot (Sweet One Million hybrid), I am tempted to throw in the towel and just buy the Sweet One Hundreds that Home Depot gets. The only problem is one has to be there when they come in because they go fast.

Thanks,

Tom

[tcarnahan]

Really? What do they use?

I have visions of "diluted Weed B Gone" to stunt their growth, kinda like Botox injections for tomatoes.

[ContainerTed]

There's another side of it. The main growers like "Bonnie" use growth inhibitors and also reduce the temperature on their seedlings to slow down initial growth. I have done an experiment this year with some of my seedlings. The ones I kept at the lowest level in my "green room" were shorter, stockier, and ready for the great outdoors. The temperature on that level was constantly in the lower 60's. On the other hand, my seedlings kept higher up (and consequently a warmer level) were much more tender and somewhat spindly or leggy.

My advice would be to wait for the first true leaves to get fully formed and then reduce the temp down to about 60 F. Don't over-fertilize during this period. The plants will work on a bigger root system and more of a "woody" stem - darker in color - that is not that light green color we associate with "soft" stems.

It has worked perfectly for me this year and I will continue it in the future. I believe it may have totally eliminated any problems with "damping off".

Other than that, I always use those "100 for a dollar" bamboo skewers (from Walmart) for support on any leggy or spindly seedlings. Those skewers follow the plant right into the garden when they're planted out.

[tcarnahan]

Thanks for the advice ... I will try that next year!

[Gerardo]

I love those skewers, use 'em on all my seedlings. They're great for dissecting out roots too.

[KarenO]

start a bit later. 6-8 weeks before your expected plant out date is plenty for tomatoes that grow fast. Weak and spindly light starved seedlings are difficult to harden off and will be set back when planted enough to delete any gain by earlier sowing.
Window light is not enough for strong stocky seedlings, supplementary light is very valuable and is likely what your seedlings need. For mine, I set up ordinary shop lights on a shelf unit in front of a large window so my small new seedlings get both as much natural light as possible indoors plus benefit from the supplementary. My personal philosophy is to do nothing that retards the growth of my seedlings in any way so I do not keep them cool or grow them in a basement but I do have a greenhouse that has large temp fluctuations day to night which my larger seedlings go to once potted up. This replicates the outdoor norm more than a constant temperature indoors whether warm or cool and help with the transition to their final planting places.

I think good growers plant at the right time and don't need to retard the growth of their plants. buy local, that is the answer to that if you buy seedlings. You risk importing serious disease issues by going cheap from box stores for tomato and pepper seedlings. In my area, this would be the source of late blight which cannot survive our winters. cheap box store transplants of questionable quality. You get what you pay for, best to grow your own as you are, just start a little later and provide supplemental light and I bet you will have shorter healthier seedlings next year.
best wishes,
KarenO

[lycomania]

From what you said, it sounds like the seedlings simply aren't getting enough light. I don't use grow lights; I use 3 el cheapo 2-bulb 4-foot fluorescents to start my seedlings. But I keep those lights on for approximately 16 hours a day and I make sure they are very close to my seedlings.

As soon as I can (basically, temp above 60 and no harsh wind) I take them outside for gradually increasing durations to get them real light. I sow early; this year about 10 weeks before our plant-out date. Starting early gets me earlier tomatoes. That said, I also plant early. Our date is May 31st and I'm planting tomorrow because of the warm weather we are experiencing. If you have a huge number of plants this strategy may not be feasible for you. I only have 3 12-slot trays to move around or protect in case the weather turns south, and only 13-15 of the tomatoes will end up planted.

I also run my hands over the seedlings when I go by, and/or put a fan on them to help toughen them up (at least before I start taking them outside). My plants are very strong and healthy.

I hope you find some information in these answers that can help you solve the problem. Good luck!

[tcarnahan]

Originally Posted by KarenO

start a bit later. 6-8 weeks before your expected plant out date is plenty for tomatoes that grow fast. Weak and spindly light starved seedlings are difficult to harden off and will be set back when planted enough to delete any gain by earlier sowing.
Window light is not enough for strong stocky seedlings, supplementary light is very valuable and is likely what your seedlings need. For mine, I set up ordinary shop lights on a shelf unit in front of a large window so my small new seedlings get both as much natural light as possible indoors plus benefit from the supplementary. My personal philosophy is to do nothing that retards the growth of my seedlings in any way so I do not keep them cool or grow them in a basement but I do have a greenhouse that has large temp fluctuations day to night which my larger seedlings go to once potted up. This replicates the outdoor norm more than a constant temperature indoors whether warm or cool and help with the transition to their final planting places.

I think good growers plant at the right time and don't need to retard the growth of their plants. buy local, that is the answer to that if you buy seedlings. You risk importing serious disease issues by going cheap from box stores for tomato and pepper seedlings. In my area, this would be the source of late blight which cannot survive our winters. cheap box store transplants of questionable quality. You get what you pay for, best to grow your own as you are, just start a little later and provide supplemental light and I bet you will have shorter healthier seedlings next year.
best wishes,
KarenO

Sounds like good advice ... Thanks!

[tcarnahan]

Originally Posted by lycomania

From what you said, it sounds like the seedlings simply aren't getting enough light. I don't use grow lights; I use 3 el cheapo 2-bulb 4-foot fluorescents to start my seedlings. But I keep those lights on for approximately 16 hours a day and I make sure they are very close to my seedlings.

As soon as I can (basically, temp above 60 and no harsh wind) I take them outside for gradually increasing durations to get them real light. I sow early; this year about 10 weeks before our plant-out date. Starting early gets me earlier tomatoes. That said, I also plant early. Our date is May 31st and I'm planting tomorrow because of the warm weather we are experiencing. If you have a huge number of plants this strategy may not be feasible for you. I only have 3 12-slot trays to move around or protect in case the weather turns south, and only 13-15 of the tomatoes will end up planted.

I also run my hands over the seedlings when I go by, and/or put a fan on them to help toughen them up (at least before I start taking them outside). My plants are very strong and healthy.

I hope you find some information in these answers that can help you solve the problem. Good luck!

Thanks!

[Cole_Robbie]

The sun is the best light. My best plants are usually the ones that come a little later in the spring season, and have never seen the indoors.

My plants get stress from wind, lack of water, and extreme temperature fluctuations. They sound like disaster survivors, but they come out of it strong. This was my market table two weeks ago: http://i.imgur.com/kLSCLEi.jpg

Last year, I lost most of my seedlings to a freeze, so I had to buy plants for my high tunnel, which is an unusual situation for me. I bought a flat of mostly Big Beef from a fellow market vendor. We've known the family a long time; they've been at market the entire 35 years that my family has been going. I had a great crop and huge plants.

So I definitely recommend farmers markets as a plant source. The plant vendors I know are selling you the same plants they grow themselves.

[clkeiper]

Quit using those peat pellets, too. There is nothing in them and I think the ph is way off for most plants anyway. they just don't thrive in them. Use a sterile potting mix and put them in pots, cups with drainage or recycle those cell packs from commercial growers that people throw away. Don't start them so soon, either. six to eight weeks is adequate. Plenty of light, repeat... PLENTY of light and do give them some fertilizer once a week at least. even if it is worm castings. They need to eat, too. I have a greenhouse so I never start anything inside, but I do start moving my plants outside as soon as I can to stress them enough to survive their trip home with a customer and planting into a garden.

[Tracydr]

My scummy pond water has done an amazing job fertilizing my seedlings this year.