Dense planting method: DE vs Metro Mix

BigVanVader · March 13, 2015

I did an experiment this year with starting most of my seeds in DE b/c It looked cool and I wanted to try it. Overall the DE worked well as I had no damping off and germination was very high, although I haven't had any issues with Metromix before either. Here are some pics of the difference in plants side by side.

20150311_231532-resized-960.jpg

20150311_231550-resized-960.jpg

20150311_232013_hdr-resized-960.jpg

As you can see the metromix plants look much more healthy and happy. What's more the DE plants are 2 weeks older than the MM plants. I did fertilize the DE once a week, at first with urin and later with 1/4 strength fish emulsion+kelp.

Overall I feel DE is a good medium in certain situations where you have trouble with dampining off, but I will be sticking with MMix from now on.

Just to add, I have found that watering seeds in with a weak fish emulsion mix at planting speeds up germination and increases vigor. I had bell peppers up and with their second set of true leaves starting to poke out in 13 days in Metromix with fert added, the ones I didn't water with fish poop are I'd say around 3 days growth behind. Experimenting is fun

jmsieglaff · March 13, 2015

I love seeing people post their experiments! Thanks for sharing. I don't use DE nor have damping off issues, but I'll file it in the back of my mind for future reference.

RayR · March 13, 2015

Yes experimenting is fun.
Your plants in DE are showing nutrient deficiency symptoms, I got some of that too when I first started using straight DE with organic fertilizers, which meant that some adjustment was needed. Let the plants tell you what the problem in so you can dial in the nutrients better. If the plants are not a nice green color and growing strong, something is wrong with nutrient availability.
I can't speak for urine as a fert in DE since I've not used it. (Don't plan too either.

) I've not used fish poop either since I don't have fish. I've not used fish emulsion in DE, only fish hydrolysate & kelp but I've found you can go much stronger with organic fertilizers. 1/4 strength fish hydrolysate & kelp is too little from my experiments. You can bump it up to a 1/2 to full strength dilution and get better response from the plant. The addition of a biological inoculant (Mycogrow or similar) will kick things up a notch, improving nutrient availability.

Another option which I would highly recommend especially for organic growers is a mix of DE with some organic components. I now exclusively use a mix of 50%DE/40% Coir/10% worm castings or a quality compost with great results.

Worth1 · March 13, 2015

Which Metro Mix did you use I went to their site and they have something like 37 different choices.

Worth

Rairdog · March 13, 2015

Show me the roots! I have experimented with DE this year. I have supplemented with; buffalo loam and compost tea, kelp based and a little non-org. I wanted big healthy roots that know how to find their own nutes.

The experiment also includes growing slow and cool. I wanted them to be ready for the cool nights when they go out so I am keeping them very purple. In the past I kept them warm and cozy with nutes within reach. They were tall and lanky from being babied in a warm rich environment. They were root bound and droopy if the moisture wasn't perfect. Now they have been exposed to 50 deg nights and 80 deg days. If I come home and it's 85 in the GH they seem less stressed and not as thirsty.

Another part of the experiment was to have them exposed to indirect sunlight from day one in the GH. They are only supplemented with artificial light.

I think DE is a good way to get them started but they need more once they get going. I like the fact that I can pull the plant out by the stem and roots are sturdy. I can re-use the DE. 2-3 minutes in the micro and it will reach 200 degs, is sterile and ready to go again.

The whole point was to mimic nature and the way a seed would naturally start. I just tried to mimic it earlier than what MN would do outside. Origianlly I wanted to use DE to make cleaning roots easier for planting in aquaponic beds. I think the real benefit is how it holds moisture and oxygen.

BigVanVader · March 13, 2015

I actually did take a pic of the roots when I was transplanting some seedlings from DE to MM360. Here ya go.
20150311_172730-resized-960.jpg
No doubt the roots love DE but I'd rather not have to worry about fertilizers if I don't need to. I didn't use any ferts last year and all my plants did great in MM360.

Worth, I use Metro Mix 360 the same thing Craig used/uses(?) Im just lucky they have it locally. I tried a few other mixes last year and MM was by far the best.

RayR · March 13, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigVanVader

I actually did take a pic of the roots when I was transplanting some seedlings from DE to MM360. Here ya go.
Attachment 47359
No doubt the roots love DE but I'd rather not have to worry about fertilizers if I don't need to. I didn't use any ferts last year and all my plants did great in MM360.

Worth, I use Metro Mix 360 the same thing Craig used/uses(?) Im just lucky they have it locally. I tried a few other mixes last year and MM was by far the best.

Metro Mix 360 has a "Starter nutrient charge (with gypsum) & slow-release nitrogen" You were fertilizing but didn't know it?
I think most commercial potting mixes have starter nutrients in them including the Metro Mix line. Some mixes don't have it for growers that want to customize their own fertilization.
Whatever the medium your plants roots are sitting in is the plants stomach. No food, not enough food, the wrong kind of food or too much food and the plant will suffer.

BigVanVader · March 13, 2015

Ray I meant specifically I didn't add anything to the mix. Which saves me time and the worry of over/under fertilizing. I am still going to experiment because I enjoy learning, but will be growing everything that will be sold in MM360 from now on b/c of its reliability and ease of use.

b54red · March 14, 2015

If you have no problems with damping off then use whatever mix works well for you. I have serious damping off issues when I use any other mix besides DE. Adding a little fertilizer to the water is just not that much of an issue. I use Urban Farms Vegetable or Apples & Oranges at between half and full strength when watering my seedlings as soon as they start popping up and can once again use the dense planting method which saves so much room in my small greenhouse. Before using DE I would frequently lose 75% of all my tomato seedlings to damping off and sometimes all of them when using the dense planting method. Now tomato seed starting is stress free instead of a hand wringing frustrating experience.

Bill

Worth1 · March 14, 2015

I have rooted plants in straight perlite and MG with great results.
Some people hate MG I like it for seedlings.
But it really doesn't matter it is what works best for each person.
Worth

BigVanVader · March 14, 2015

Exactly, and I will continue using DE and working on getting the fertilizing schedule more honed in. I like to use it for rooting succulents and bromeliads and cuttings in general. I think DE is a great medium and don't want to discourage others from trying it. I have just found it to be more trouble than its worth for starting 350+ seedlings as I haven't had issues with damping off as of yet. Ray thanks for the info on what and how often you fertiliz. I seem to either over feed or under feed most of the time.

RayR · March 14, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigVanVader

Exactly, and I will continue using DE and working on getting the fertilizing schedule more honed in. I like to use it for rooting succulents and bromeliads and cuttings in general. I think DE is a great medium and don't want to discourage others from trying it. I have just found it to be more trouble than its worth for starting 350+ seedlings as I haven't had issues with damping off as of yet. Ray thanks for the info on what and how often you fertiliz. I seem to either over feed or under feed most of the time.

You're welcome.
Makes perfect sense to stick with what you know works for you. especially if income relies in it. Don't put all your seeds in one basket! I would never tell anyone to put all their hopes in an unfamiliar medium until they've learned how to make it work through trail and error.

kevn357 · March 14, 2015

I personally love DE. I just add some liquid fert everytime I water when they get their true leaves. The DE stays moist so I only need to water roughly twice a week. My plants roots are amazing and they transplant nicely using the dense planting method. Plus I get great germination rates and no dampening off.

For the low cost of DE and small amounts of liquid fert, I can't justify spending so much more on a different medium because it might save me a little time by not adding my own fert.

This just goes to show though that if one does use DE, they do need to be proactive with the nutritional aspect.

Father'sDaughter · March 15, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevn357

I personally love DE. I just add some liquid fert everytime I water when they get their true leaves. The DE stays moist so I only need to water roughly twice a week. My plants roots are amazing and they transplant nicely using the dense planting method. Plus I get great germination rates and no dampening off.

For the low cost of DE and small amounts of liquid fert, I can't justify spending so much more on a different medium because it might save me a little time by not adding my own fert.

I love it for all the same reasons, plus the fact that you can re-use it.

Rairdog · March 15, 2015

At some point you got to ask yourself, "do I want a big show up top or a good base below". Customers want the show cause its sells. They come back for the roots that give them the long run. Do you want to sell them the show....go ahead. I don't sell. I give free plants. No one gets a show. Get your roots in order if your gonna sell.

March 13, 2015	#1
BigVanVader Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Greenville, South Carolina Posts: 3,099	Dense planting method: DE vs Metro Mix I did an experiment this year with starting most of my seeds in DE b/c It looked cool and I wanted to try it. Overall the DE worked well as I had no damping off and germination was very high, although I haven't had any issues with Metromix before either. Here are some pics of the difference in plants side by side. 20150311_231532-resized-960.jpg 20150311_231550-resized-960.jpg 20150311_232013_hdr-resized-960.jpg As you can see the metromix plants look much more healthy and happy. What's more the DE plants are 2 weeks older than the MM plants. I did fertilize the DE once a week, at first with urin and later with 1/4 strength fish emulsion+kelp. Overall I feel DE is a good medium in certain situations where you have trouble with dampining off, but I will be sticking with MMix from now on. Just to add, I have found that watering seeds in with a weak fish emulsion mix at planting speeds up germination and increases vigor. I had bell peppers up and with their second set of true leaves starting to poke out in 13 days in Metromix with fert added, the ones I didn't water with fish poop are I'd say around 3 days growth behind. Experimenting is fun

March 13, 2015	#3
RayR Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Cheektowaga, NY Posts: 2,466	Yes experimenting is fun. Your plants in DE are showing nutrient deficiency symptoms, I got some of that too when I first started using straight DE with organic fertilizers, which meant that some adjustment was needed. Let the plants tell you what the problem in so you can dial in the nutrients better. If the plants are not a nice green color and growing strong, something is wrong with nutrient availability. I can't speak for urine as a fert in DE since I've not used it. (Don't plan too either.) I've not used fish poop either since I don't have fish. I've not used fish emulsion in DE, only fish hydrolysate & kelp but I've found you can go much stronger with organic fertilizers. 1/4 strength fish hydrolysate & kelp is too little from my experiments. You can bump it up to a 1/2 to full strength dilution and get better response from the plant. The addition of a biological inoculant (Mycogrow or similar) will kick things up a notch, improving nutrient availability. Another option which I would highly recommend especially for organic growers is a mix of DE with some organic components. I now exclusively use a mix of 50%DE/40% Coir/10% worm castings or a quality compost with great results.

March 13, 2015	#2
jmsieglaff Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Southern WI Posts: 2,742	I love seeing people post their experiments! Thanks for sharing. I don't use DE nor have damping off issues, but I'll file it in the back of my mind for future reference.

March 13, 2015	#4
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Which Metro Mix did you use I went to their site and they have something like 37 different choices. Worth

March 13, 2015	#5
Rairdog Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2014 Location: Noblesville, IN Posts: 112	Show me the roots! I have experimented with DE this year. I have supplemented with; buffalo loam and compost tea, kelp based and a little non-org. I wanted big healthy roots that know how to find their own nutes. The experiment also includes growing slow and cool. I wanted them to be ready for the cool nights when they go out so I am keeping them very purple. In the past I kept them warm and cozy with nutes within reach. They were tall and lanky from being babied in a warm rich environment. They were root bound and droopy if the moisture wasn't perfect. Now they have been exposed to 50 deg nights and 80 deg days. If I come home and it's 85 in the GH they seem less stressed and not as thirsty. Another part of the experiment was to have them exposed to indirect sunlight from day one in the GH. They are only supplemented with artificial light. I think DE is a good way to get them started but they need more once they get going. I like the fact that I can pull the plant out by the stem and roots are sturdy. I can re-use the DE. 2-3 minutes in the micro and it will reach 200 degs, is sterile and ready to go again. The whole point was to mimic nature and the way a seed would naturally start. I just tried to mimic it earlier than what MN would do outside. Origianlly I wanted to use DE to make cleaning roots easier for planting in aquaponic beds. I think the real benefit is how it holds moisture and oxygen.

March 14, 2015	#9
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	If you have no problems with damping off then use whatever mix works well for you. I have serious damping off issues when I use any other mix besides DE. Adding a little fertilizer to the water is just not that much of an issue. I use Urban Farms Vegetable or Apples & Oranges at between half and full strength when watering my seedlings as soon as they start popping up and can once again use the dense planting method which saves so much room in my small greenhouse. Before using DE I would frequently lose 75% of all my tomato seedlings to damping off and sometimes all of them when using the dense planting method. Now tomato seed starting is stress free instead of a hand wringing frustrating experience. Bill

March 14, 2015	#13
kevn357 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Parma, OH Posts: 147	I personally love DE. I just add some liquid fert everytime I water when they get their true leaves. The DE stays moist so I only need to water roughly twice a week. My plants roots are amazing and they transplant nicely using the dense planting method. Plus I get great germination rates and no dampening off. For the low cost of DE and small amounts of liquid fert, I can't justify spending so much more on a different medium because it might save me a little time by not adding my own fert. This just goes to show though that if one does use DE, they do need to be proactive with the nutritional aspect.

March 15, 2015	#15
Rairdog Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2014 Location: Noblesville, IN Posts: 112	At some point you got to ask yourself, "do I want a big show up top or a good base below". Customers want the show cause its sells. They come back for the roots that give them the long run. Do you want to sell them the show....go ahead. I don't sell. I give free plants. No one gets a show. Get your roots in order if your gonna sell.