Clones vs Seeds

[Kikaida]

Hi All,

As my first season skids into the history books its been very interesting to say the least. The bulk of my plants came from the nursery and were obviously clones. I have 3 plants that I started from seed and the difference is very noticeable.

My seed starts are quite different in appearance and seems to be healthier and with more fruit. They are 3 different types, a beef steak a roma and an orange type so I think these observations are accurate.

The clone stock seemed to have produced less, was more susceptible to bugs and was more leggy than the seed starts.

Reading about cloning of other plants, I learned that there is a definite decline in viability if its a clone of a clone of a clone or possibly if the mother is very old.

Would saved seeds from spent clones reset the clock or would they produce spent plants?

What have your observations been?

[NarnianGarden]

My experience has been the opposite, but growing conditions, soil, nutrition etc, have a lot to do with the outcome. I have grown cuttings for two seasons, most have produced well and even tasted better than the fruit from mother plant.. (Black Krim...)
It also has been space-saving to have a clone growing in a smaller container. It may look funny, but very short branches with huge fruits hanging from the vine are handy - they are much easier to move around. That also is a great way to experiment with different varieties (no need to get all tomatoe plants from seed, just get a cutting from another gardener ..)

In 2013, I had several mini Black Krim plants in various containers - the fruit still got large, not to mention tasty.

I would encourage anyone to grow from clones. Try different locations for flavor comparison, and that gives valuable information about tomato farming.

[Barb_FL]

My experience has been exactly like NarnianGarden - quicker fruit set, bigger and more fruit overall even healthier plants.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Kikaida

Hi All,

As my first season skids into the history books its been very interesting to say the least. The bulk of my plants came from the nursery and were obviously clones. I have 3 plants that I started from seed and the difference is very noticeable.

My seed starts are quite different in appearance and seems to be healthier and with more fruit. They are 3 different types, a beef steak a roma and an orange type so I think these observations are accurate.

The clone stock seemed to have produced less, was more susceptible to bugs and was more leggy than the seed starts.

Reading about cloning of other plants, I learned that there is a definite decline in viability if its a clone of a clone of a clone or possibly if the mother is very old.

Would saved seeds from spent clones reset the clock or would they produce spent plants?

What have your observations been?

Just curious, but why would you assume that plants bought from a nursery were from clones?

And I ask b'c I know two large scale commercial tomato growers who grow their own plants from seed as they do for the ones that they sell to nurseries.

Having had some critter damage in my tomato field from time to time I had to sometimes take sucker, aka lateral branch, cuttings and I just put them directly into the soil next to the damaged plant(s), built a wee moat around them and kept the moat filled with water until I saw new growth, and I couldn't tell the difference between the cloned plant and the ones grown from seed.

What I haven't done is to grow the same variety in the same season, one from seed and one from cloning, which would be impossible for me to do in my zone 5 area since no plants available for cloning when needed. But most of the time I was growing many varieties for my SSE listings for new seed production so knew what a variety grown from seed looked like so could make the comparison,

All to say that IMO there should be no difference at all between a tomato plant grown from seed and one grown by cloning of a lateral branch.

Carolyn

[Kikaida]

Hmmm, wonder what's going on with my plants then?

I'm pretty sure they are clones as the stems were as big around as your index finger yet the plants were maybe 8 inches tall. And as small as they were, they were already covered with flowers. My seed starts were spindly little things at around the same size and flowers didn't show up for a while.

I'll take some photos when I get home and show the difference.

Glad I saved seeds Carolyn, I guess the stink was worth it

[TexasTycoon]

Originally Posted by Kikaida

Hmmm, wonder what's going on with my plants then?

I'm pretty sure they are clones as the stems were as big around as your index finger yet the plants were maybe 8 inches tall. And as small as they were, they were already covered with flowers. My seed starts were spindly little things at around the same size and flowers didn't show up for a while.

I'll take some photos when I get home and show the difference.

I'm no expert, but I'm thinking the nursery plants may have had a growth inhibitor on them like a lot of commercial growers do to keep plants from getting out of hand while on display.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by TexasTycoon

I'm no expert, but I'm thinking the nursery plants may have had a growth inhibitor on them like a lot of commercial growers do to keep plants from getting out of hand while on display.

And I tend to agree with you.

I don't think of that often since the commercial growers I know don't use growth inhibitor on tomatoes or anything else edible but do use it on flowers to keep them in the blooming phase since they sell better when blooming. And unfortuantely most who buy those flower 6 packs, or whatever, don't know enough to ASAP take off those blossoms and then the plants will grow normally.

Carolyn

[Worth1]

It just isn't feasible for a big grower to start and sell plants from clones.
Sit back and go through the process in your mind and think about it.

Worth

[Gardeneer]

Rooting cuttings can give you head start with much less headache and work and better plants and you can be sure that what you see is what you get, no accidental crossing or stray seeds.

If you sow seeds and start cuttings at the same time, by the time seeds germinate the cuttings should start growing roots. In this race cuttings should be clear winners. JMO

Gardeneer

[Kikaida]

Hmmmm, starting to make sense now Worth.
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Growth inhibitor huh? So the long term out look after being sprayed with this stuff is iffy? Would that explain the difference I'm seeing? Maybe that explains the mystery dying of my Krim? Genetic damage? Its still limping along but nothing has spread to near by plants, no bugs are on it...It just seems to be terminating its self with no discernible characteristic of any one disease or bug infestation. Sort of looks like this or that but key pieces of evidence is missing from the diagnosis. Very informative thread (for me at least)
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Next season, all seed from reputable sources...then I'll clone from there.
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Thanks for the input all, really helps in the learning process!

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Kikaida

Hmmmm, starting to make sense now Worth.
-
Growth inhibitor huh? So the long term out look after being sprayed with this stuff is iffy? Would that explain the difference I'm seeing? Maybe that explains the mystery dying of my Krim? Genetic damage? Its still limping along but nothing has spread to near by plants, no bugs are on it...It just seems to be terminating its self with no discernible characteristic of any one disease or bug infestation. Sort of looks like this or that but key pieces of evidence is missing from the diagnosis. Very informative thread (for me at least)
-
Next season, all seed from reputable sources...then I'll clone from there.
-
Thanks for the input all, really helps in the learning process!

Please see my post #7 above.

Growth inhibitors are hormones, they do not kill plants and they don't cause genetic mutations.

In my post #7 I mentioned the fact that with flowers that had been sprayed with growth inhibitors youhad to take the blossoms off and then the plant would grow normally.

I have never personally grown any growth inhibitor treat tomato plants but I would imagine that when the inhibitor wears off inside the plant they will grow normally and should grow normally.

Please read the first link in thefollowing Google Search

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q...es+tomatoville

Several threads here from Tville talking about the fact that the product called Blossom set is also a hormone, actually there are different brands that use different hormones, the one I remember best is IAA ( Indoleacetic acid) and it doesn't inhibit plants or cause mutations either.

Actually Blossom Set was devised to be use in those areas where the Spings are on the cool side, such as the PNW, so pollinationtion doesn't occur as it should and using it causes what are called parthenocarpic fruits which have almost no seeds and fruits can be very irregular.

but unfortuately most folks don't know that so use it where temps are perfectly fine for effective pollination when there are alternatives that also work, such as shaking the plants a few times a day or whacking them with a broom.

Pollination also depends on the weather since rain, high humidity can cause clumping of the pollen making it much less effective and nothing can overcome that.

Hope the above helps,

Carolyn