4-18-38 Fertilizing Question

peebee · March 18, 2019

So, I've been reading and reading as much as I can here and on the net about this fertilizer and I have not found this specific question answered:
If I go with the 4-18-38 fert, calcium nitrate and Epsom salt route in my Earthbox water reservoir, will I still need to add the strip of granular fert (ones recommended for EBs)?
If this has been addressed on an earlier post, I must've missed it somehow but the ones I've read are vague about this. I'm hoping our resident hydroponics guru AKmark and our EB guru Marsha will chime in also.
Again, this is for EBs only. I am almost ready to start them soon. My in-ground toms will be dealt with later. Can't wait!

zipcode · March 18, 2019

You can do both, probably the easiest route. Just use the liquid stuff from time to time, when you think fertilizer reserves are running low.
You can use the liquid mix exclusively as well, but you'll have to find out what concentration, running same ppms as people who do drain to waste will be too much after a while since there's no flushing. It's true that part of the salts will rise up at the top as a crust in the case of bottom water, which is great, but still I think there will be more salt buildup than in a constant overwintering system.

Barb_FL · March 18, 2019

I used it exclusively one year without fertilizer strips and the plants did great.

But, I was afraid of too much salt build up that I dumped all my potting mix at the end of the season and started over which is very expensive at $50 for a bale of ProMix including tax.

Looking back, I don't know if that was necessary as I use the 4-18-36 formula quite a bit in the root pouches and at the end of the season, I'm feeding them Kelp, Humic, Fulvic mixture to cleans the mix and reusing the mix works great.

Since I feed them manually, it is more of a drag to use the 'formula' in the EB than just a hose or hose and a spoonful of something.

Ginny who use to post, did Texas Tomato Tone exclusively in an EB one year with great results and the company that sells TTF told her to use a 4 day on, 3 day flush system.

Cole_Robbie · March 18, 2019

I am not an EB grower, but just the 4 18 38, cal nitrate, and epsom salts do not make a complete fertilizer. I would think one would need additional amendments.

peebee · March 19, 2019

I forgot about the flushing part so I guess zipcodes suggestion makes sense esp after reading what Barb posted on her findings.
Thanks to all who replied. I'm planting tomorrow if it doesn't rain.

zipcode · March 19, 2019

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

I am not an EB grower, but just the 4 18 38, cal nitrate, and epsom salts do not make a complete fertilizer. I would think one would need additional amendments.

One doesn't need anything else, no. This is basically a complete hydroponics formula. The 4-18-38 has the micronutrients already. There are various formulas from different companies for the 'base', one should read carefully in what form each microelement is and in what concentration.

AlittleSalt · March 19, 2019

It's my second year of using the 4-18-38, Calcium Nitrate and Epsom salt in containers. I have nothing to compare it to though because it's the only way I have grown plants in containers, and I have not used an EB.
I do believe in using the 4-18-38, Calcium Nitrate and Epsom salt because of what I've seen in pictures and watching my plants grow while watering/feeding with it.

A factor that might or might not have anything to do with your growing situation is something I just heard on Accuweather this morning -- This is the first year since 2011 that California isn't in a drought situation. I don't know how EBs work when it rains too much. In containers, too much rain is not a good thing.

JaxRmrJmr · March 19, 2019

Not sure if EBs have an overflow hole. I use the rain gutter system and I always have a hole drilled about 2 3/4" up from the bottom of one of my buckets. I feed from the top and bottom. When it rains here, there is water just squirting out of the that hole. In my mind, the rain is flushing salt (and nutrients) down into my reservoir and pouring out of my overflow hole. It seems to keep mine working fine. I have not seen any negative results even when I use the same mix 2-3 times in a row. I do drain my entire reservoir 2 times a year.

I use the MasterBlend formula from the top and bottom until I have a good set of tomatoes. Then I use it from bottom and start using TTF from the top. Hope something in here helps.

Cole_Robbie · March 19, 2019

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipcode

One doesn't need anything else, no. This is basically a complete hydroponics formula. The 4-18-38 has the micronutrients already.

I believe you, but mine didn't. I bought mine from Morgan County Seed.

zipcode · March 20, 2019

From their page, the tomato one at least should have: https://www.morgancountyseeds.com/pr...lizer-4-18-38/
The amounts are good (one needs to consider the fact that all values will be divided to 2.5, since you add the calcium and magnesium stuff). In fact, the values are much higher than the base stuff one finds here in Europe, the higher values are more in line with other custom formulas around the net.
They don't say what form they are in however, probably the iron is edta, for sure, but who knows about the rest.
Chemgro has iron dtpa (much better than edta for hard water), but manganese is only sulfate.

Greenway biotech has all in edta. This one also has even higher values, especially for Zn and B.

Cole_Robbie · March 20, 2019

Quote:

Originally Posted by zipcode

From their page, the tomato one at least should have: https://www.morgancountyseeds.com/pr...lizer-4-18-38/
The amounts are good (one needs to consider the fact that all values will be divided to 2.5, since you add the calcium and magnesium stuff). In fact, the values are much higher than the base stuff one finds here in Europe, the higher values are more in line with other custom formulas around the net.
They don't say what form they are in however, probably the iron is edta, for sure, but who knows about the rest.
Chemgro has iron dtpa (much better than edta for hard water), but manganese is only sulfate.

Greenway biotech has all in edta. This one also has even higher values, especially for Zn and B.

Thanks for that link. The description in the paper catalog does not mention the micros at all.

Edit: I just found a paper catalog and double checked. The catalog does not even state the Masterblend brand. It just says "tomato fertilizer." There is nothing about micros in the description. I am glad you pointed it out to me, as I still have a lot of it left. Morgan County's web site is administered by someone other than the company owner. They were not on the Internet at all until a few years ago. Now I guess I know to read the web site product descriptions for better detail. Thanks again.

AKmark · March 20, 2019

It is not only a complete fertilizer, it is tailored specifically for tomatoes in containers. Other than Haifa products or doing the mix myself, it is Hydro gardens blend all the way. I have used it for several years, works like a charm.

If you use this fertilizer correctly I think you could have some real issues adding other fertilizers. These tailored fertilizers have been dialed in by element analysis of leaf samples. To add more or less I think would show up in the reports. I think a little Blue Lab pen would help too, the Hanna's are decent also. Then follow the directions and see what the pH, and EC is. Adjust as needed.

peebee · March 21, 2019

You're always so helpful AKmark, replying so often and reliably to our questions on all things hydro. Just now I went thru 3 hours of reading as many posts as I could regarding the 4-18-38 and Flora Nova. It's now almost 2AM and I feel like I just crammed for a big test tomorrow

.
I'm wavering between the 2 now. I might start with baby steps and try the FN this year, so I have more time to absorb the info on the 4-18-38.
Anyhoo I think I need some sleep now

. Thanks all.

Tomzhawaii · March 22, 2019

[QUOTE=peebee;730099]You're always so helpful AKmark, replying so often and reliably to our questions on all things hydro. Just now I went thru 3 hours of reading as many posts as I could regarding the 4-18-38 and Flora Nova. It's now almost 2AM and I feel like I just crammed for a big test tomorrow

.
I'm wavering between the 2 now. I might start with baby steps and try the FN this year, so I have more time to absorb the info on the 4-18-38.

Peebee ,
I am in a similar situation with nutrients. I REALLY want to make a good choice. If I were just growing tomatoes, it would be alot more simple. Fox Farms has been good, just not great. Many problems were my doing or not doing. I'm guessing there will be more learning needed, for whatever I decide. But it looks like Gen Hydro is where I'm leaning. And yes Mark has indeed always given very sound advise to me. Well, I hope you are rested. Aloha, Tom

lexxluthor · March 22, 2019

Not a great grower by any means but i have used 4-18-38 for the last few years and had only a couple of issues with growing 20 varieties of peppers and 10 varieties of maters. Last year I had blossom end rot for the first time in the last 5 years. I had two eb of 8 with ber. One box with tomatoes and one with peppers. I mix 5 gallon buckets for fertilizer and pour directly into the earthboxe's. I had the ber early so I added lime in those to boxes and they finished the rest of the season ber less. My reason was the cost was minimal for a lot of fertilizer.

March 18, 2019	#1
peebee Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Southern CA Posts: 1,714	4-18-38 Fertilizing Question So, I've been reading and reading as much as I can here and on the net about this fertilizer and I have not found this specific question answered: If I go with the 4-18-38 fert, calcium nitrate and Epsom salt route in my Earthbox water reservoir, will I still need to add the strip of granular fert (ones recommended for EBs)? If this has been addressed on an earlier post, I must've missed it somehow but the ones I've read are vague about this. I'm hoping our resident hydroponics guru AKmark and our EB guru Marsha will chime in also. Again, this is for EBs only. I am almost ready to start them soon. My in-ground toms will be dealt with later. Can't wait!

March 18, 2019	#2
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	You can do both, probably the easiest route. Just use the liquid stuff from time to time, when you think fertilizer reserves are running low. You can use the liquid mix exclusively as well, but you'll have to find out what concentration, running same ppms as people who do drain to waste will be too much after a while since there's no flushing. It's true that part of the salts will rise up at the top as a crust in the case of bottom water, which is great, but still I think there will be more salt buildup than in a constant overwintering system. Last edited by zipcode; March 18, 2019 at 06:32 AM.

March 20, 2019	#12
AKmark Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Wasilla Alaska Posts: 2,010	It is not only a complete fertilizer, it is tailored specifically for tomatoes in containers. Other than Haifa products or doing the mix myself, it is Hydro gardens blend all the way. I have used it for several years, works like a charm. If you use this fertilizer correctly I think you could have some real issues adding other fertilizers. These tailored fertilizers have been dialed in by element analysis of leaf samples. To add more or less I think would show up in the reports. I think a little Blue Lab pen would help too, the Hanna's are decent also. Then follow the directions and see what the pH, and EC is. Adjust as needed. Last edited by AKmark; March 20, 2019 at 11:40 PM.

March 22, 2019	#14
Tomzhawaii Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Honolulu ,Hawaii Posts: 262	On the fence [QUOTE=peebee;730099]You're always so helpful AKmark, replying so often and reliably to our questions on all things hydro. Just now I went thru 3 hours of reading as many posts as I could regarding the 4-18-38 and Flora Nova. It's now almost 2AM and I feel like I just crammed for a big test tomorrow . I'm wavering between the 2 now. I might start with baby steps and try the FN this year, so I have more time to absorb the info on the 4-18-38. Peebee , I am in a similar situation with nutrients. I REALLY want to make a good choice. If I were just growing tomatoes, it would be alot more simple. Fox Farms has been good, just not great. Many problems were my doing or not doing. I'm guessing there will be more learning needed, for whatever I decide. But it looks like Gen Hydro is where I'm leaning. And yes Mark has indeed always given very sound advise to me. Well, I hope you are rested. Aloha, Tom

March 18, 2019	#3
Barb_FL Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Indialantic, Florida Posts: 2,000	I used it exclusively one year without fertilizer strips and the plants did great. But, I was afraid of too much salt build up that I dumped all my potting mix at the end of the season and started over which is very expensive at $50 for a bale of ProMix including tax. Looking back, I don't know if that was necessary as I use the 4-18-36 formula quite a bit in the root pouches and at the end of the season, I'm feeding them Kelp, Humic, Fulvic mixture to cleans the mix and reusing the mix works great. Since I feed them manually, it is more of a drag to use the 'formula' in the EB than just a hose or hose and a spoonful of something. Ginny who use to post, did Texas Tomato Tone exclusively in an EB one year with great results and the company that sells TTF told her to use a 4 day on, 3 day flush system.

March 18, 2019	#4
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	I am not an EB grower, but just the 4 18 38, cal nitrate, and epsom salts do not make a complete fertilizer. I would think one would need additional amendments.

March 19, 2019	#5
peebee Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Southern CA Posts: 1,714	I forgot about the flushing part so I guess zipcodes suggestion makes sense esp after reading what Barb posted on her findings. Thanks to all who replied. I'm planting tomorrow if it doesn't rain.

March 19, 2019	#7
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	It's my second year of using the 4-18-38, Calcium Nitrate and Epsom salt in containers. I have nothing to compare it to though because it's the only way I have grown plants in containers, and I have not used an EB. I do believe in using the 4-18-38, Calcium Nitrate and Epsom salt because of what I've seen in pictures and watching my plants grow while watering/feeding with it. A factor that might or might not have anything to do with your growing situation is something I just heard on Accuweather this morning -- This is the first year since 2011 that California isn't in a drought situation. I don't know how EBs work when it rains too much. In containers, too much rain is not a good thing.

March 19, 2019	#8
JaxRmrJmr Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Jax, FL - 9A Posts: 172	Not sure if EBs have an overflow hole. I use the rain gutter system and I always have a hole drilled about 2 3/4" up from the bottom of one of my buckets. I feed from the top and bottom. When it rains here, there is water just squirting out of the that hole. In my mind, the rain is flushing salt (and nutrients) down into my reservoir and pouring out of my overflow hole. It seems to keep mine working fine. I have not seen any negative results even when I use the same mix 2-3 times in a row. I do drain my entire reservoir 2 times a year. I use the MasterBlend formula from the top and bottom until I have a good set of tomatoes. Then I use it from bottom and start using TTF from the top. Hope something in here helps.

March 21, 2019	#13
peebee Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Southern CA Posts: 1,714	You're always so helpful AKmark, replying so often and reliably to our questions on all things hydro. Just now I went thru 3 hours of reading as many posts as I could regarding the 4-18-38 and Flora Nova. It's now almost 2AM and I feel like I just crammed for a big test tomorrow . I'm wavering between the 2 now. I might start with baby steps and try the FN this year, so I have more time to absorb the info on the 4-18-38. Anyhoo I think I need some sleep now . Thanks all.

March 22, 2019	#15
lexxluthor Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: New York Posts: 156	Not a great grower by any means but i have used 4-18-38 for the last few years and had only a couple of issues with growing 20 varieties of peppers and 10 varieties of maters. Last year I had blossom end rot for the first time in the last 5 years. I had two eb of 8 with ber. One box with tomatoes and one with peppers. I mix 5 gallon buckets for fertilizer and pour directly into the earthboxe's. I had the ber early so I added lime in those to boxes and they finished the rest of the season ber less. My reason was the cost was minimal for a lot of fertilizer.