Can you root determinates?

frankcar1965 · June 27, 2015

Or rather will they make fruit if I do root some. I have some Fireworks that have done so well that I would like to attempt fall tomatoes and don't have any seeds left.

seaeagle · June 27, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankcar1965

Or rather will they make fruit if I do root some. I have some Fireworks that have done so well that I would like to attempt fall tomatoes and don't have any seeds left.

I'm pretty sure you can root determinate suckers.I never have, but have planted some indeterminate suckers.Hopefully someone will confirm

pauldavid · June 28, 2015

Thats a good question. Curious myself. Someone with more knowledge on the subject should enlighten us soon, me thinks.

CamuMahubah · June 28, 2015

Go For Broke. If you cain't(and I'm sure you can or we would have already heard you cain't) you are out nothing but time.

Gardeneer · June 28, 2015

It should be quicker growing by rooting than from seeds, IMO.
Plus, you can be 100% that you will get the exact same variety, no chance of cross.

Gardeneer

Tracydr · June 28, 2015

I had a Marglobe that rooted itself on a branch that was laying on the ground. It had a nice,big second flush of tomatoes. It didn't have much time,since I was in AZ, where the tomato season is quite short but it did produce a surprising number of fruit,even with heat coming on.

Redbaron · June 28, 2015

yes

travis · June 28, 2015

When rooting "suckers" (side shoots) from fully determinate varieties, the side shoot may be advanced enough, or from a plant advanced enough, to have received the signal to terminate, and thus the rooted side shoot may form its terminal flowers before forming its own side shoots to grow additional fruit.

frankcar1965 · June 28, 2015

Ok then, so I should take them from lower down I guess- larger and thus more advanced. Is that correct?

bower · June 28, 2015

I've been doing a lot of counting leaves/internodes between clusters on determinate and semi-determinate plants this year. What seems to be common, is that the plant will do a "termination sequence" ie cluster - leaf - cluster cluster- leaf, and after that it will start again with either (a) the number of leaves before the first cluster on the main stem, or (b) the number of leaves before the first cluster on the side shoots, and then the termination sequence is repeated and the shoot terminates.
So I also noticed on a couple of plants that there are a lot of adventitious roots forming, right around the place where the new (a) or (b) series begins. As if the plant was shooting off another 'plant' of itself, to root down into the ground.
So if I wanted to root a shoot from a determinate plant, I would count the leaves between the clusters, and I'd make my cut at the bottom of a series of three leaves or more without any clusters between em.
If there's a cluster below and you want those fruit, leave one leaf just above the cluster and make your cut.

NarnianGarden · June 28, 2015

Yes. Go for it, try to get a sucker that is long enough to have enough stem to grow roots, but no visible blossoms/buds yet.

digsdirt · June 28, 2015

I generally find it to be a waste of time. In the GH we clone 100s of indeterminates for sales but the success rate with determinates is very low and even if the cutting roots its odds of production are slim. The timing for taking the cutting and its age relative to the age of the mother plant are so crucial that you start out with 2 strikes against you. So for all practical purposes I tell folks not to waste time doing it.

Quote:

Ok then, so I should take them from lower down I guess- larger and thus more advanced. Is that correct?

So if you want to try it then no, you want a very young cutting and they will be nearer the top of the plant. And while you want it long enough to have a couple of inches of bare stem to root you do not want "larger and more advanced". The lower branches will already have a reduced circulatory system and may have already triggered bloom on themselves even if you can't see it yet. If that is the case then it may root but it won't fruit.

Dave

frankcar1965 · June 28, 2015

Uh-oh, my bad Fireworks is indeterminate which is good since there seems to be differing ideas- one says more advanced, one says younger. I have some determinates so I think experimentation is in order. Now if I can keep the mites under control through the summer. I'm tired of spraying.

digsdirt · June 28, 2015

Quote:

one says more advanced, one says younger.

Actually I didn't see anyone recommend a lower down, more advanced cutting so I was wondering where you got that info. In fact travis also advised against it above. We both said basically the same thing.

Quote:

the side shoot may be advanced enough, or from a plant advanced enough, to have received the signal to terminate, and thus the rooted side shoot may form its terminal flowers before forming its own side shoots to grow additional fruit.

The lower down, more advanced limbs may have already triggered terminal blooms, as he said and I agreed and pointed out that you may not be able to see them yet. So you would get no more lateral branches from that cutting and no more fruit.

dave

frankcar1965 · June 28, 2015

I really thought he said just the opposite, sorry Travis- it was a rather rambling post to
me.

June 27, 2015	#1
frankcar1965 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: NW Louisiana Posts: 89	Can you root determinates? Or rather will they make fruit if I do root some. I have some Fireworks that have done so well that I would like to attempt fall tomatoes and don't have any seeds left.

June 28, 2015	#3
pauldavid Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NE Louisiana, Zone 8A Posts: 1,179	Thats a good question. Curious myself. Someone with more knowledge on the subject should enlighten us soon, me thinks. Last edited by pauldavid; June 28, 2015 at 03:53 AM. Reason: Left words out

June 28, 2015	#7
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	yes __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture

June 28, 2015	#4
CamuMahubah Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Alliance Nebraska Posts: 169	Go For Broke. If you cain't(and I'm sure you can or we would have already heard you cain't) you are out nothing but time.

June 28, 2015	#5
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,916	It should be quicker growing by rooting than from seeds, IMO. Plus, you can be 100% that you will get the exact same variety, no chance of cross. Gardeneer

June 28, 2015	#6
Tracydr Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2011 Location: Laurinburg, North Carolina, zone 7 Posts: 3,207	I had a Marglobe that rooted itself on a branch that was laying on the ground. It had a nice,big second flush of tomatoes. It didn't have much time,since I was in AZ, where the tomato season is quite short but it did produce a surprising number of fruit,even with heat coming on.

June 28, 2015	#8
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	When rooting "suckers" (side shoots) from fully determinate varieties, the side shoot may be advanced enough, or from a plant advanced enough, to have received the signal to terminate, and thus the rooted side shoot may form its terminal flowers before forming its own side shoots to grow additional fruit.

June 28, 2015	#10
bower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Newfoundland, Canada Posts: 6,794	I've been doing a lot of counting leaves/internodes between clusters on determinate and semi-determinate plants this year. What seems to be common, is that the plant will do a "termination sequence" ie cluster - leaf - cluster cluster- leaf, and after that it will start again with either (a) the number of leaves before the first cluster on the main stem, or (b) the number of leaves before the first cluster on the side shoots, and then the termination sequence is repeated and the shoot terminates. So I also noticed on a couple of plants that there are a lot of adventitious roots forming, right around the place where the new (a) or (b) series begins. As if the plant was shooting off another 'plant' of itself, to root down into the ground. So if I wanted to root a shoot from a determinate plant, I would count the leaves between the clusters, and I'd make my cut at the bottom of a series of three leaves or more without any clusters between em. If there's a cluster below and you want those fruit, leave one leaf just above the cluster and make your cut.

June 28, 2015	#11
NarnianGarden Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Finland, EU Posts: 2,550	Yes. Go for it, try to get a sucker that is long enough to have enough stem to grow roots, but no visible blossoms/buds yet.