Please explain F1, F2, etc.....

patty_b · April 23, 2006

I have Sleepy in the NH dwarf crosses growout and trying to learn the correct way to note crosses. I also have seedling this year that are from hybrid plants but no intentional crosses were made. Such as OP Andromeda, Momotaro, Sweet Baby Girl, and a couple others that I am not remembering. Do I call these seedling Andromeda F2.........then OP seed from that would be Andromeda F3 or do they need to be a choice cross to be so noted? I'm just not sure! Thanks, Patty

geol · April 23, 2006

It’s my understanding that the hybrid plant is the first generation (F1) that results from crossing two parental lines. Self-pollinated seed from a hybrid would be the second generation (F2) plant, and so on, as long as the line continues to self-pollinate. If crossed with outside pollen, a new hybrid (F1) seed is created.

**nctomatoman** · April 24, 2006

Keith has a really good link on this in another thread.

Let's take it slow. Take two open pollinated varieties (as Patrina did with the dwarf crosses) - take pollen from one (male) and put onto the emasculated flower of the other (female) - if a tomato develops, it is the F1 hybrid; saved seed will be F1 (hybrid) seed, which is what we all have from Patrina. Theoretically, all seeds in an F1 are the same - and the fruit that comes from the cross will exhibit the various dominant traits.

so, we are all growing these F1s from Patrina. If crossing does not happen, seeds saved from the fruits produced will be the F2 generation. They will give a mix of types - this is where the fun begins, because you start seeing different traits - both parents, as well as traits in between.

Save seeds from the F2 fruit, you get the F3 generation, etc....

veggiecanner · April 24, 2006

If I have saved seed for 2 generations from a open polinated seed that I recived in a trade. How should I refer to the seed?
I have had a few persons refer to this as F1, F2 ect. But I am sure this is not right.

**carolyn137** · April 24, 2006

If I have saved seed for 2 generations from a open polinated seed that I recived in a trade. How should I refer to the seed?
I have had a few persons refer to this as F1, F2 ect. But I am sure this is not right.

Since the variety was already OP it means it's already genetically stable and so you wouldn't ever use the terms F2, F2, F3, etc.

Those terms are only used when starting with an F1 hybrid and saving seed in sequential steps to try and get it to the OP state.

By definition OP's are genetically stable and self pollenization leads to seed that is still OP unless a mutation or an accidental cross pollination has occurred.

When referring to a hybrid, it can be a known F1 hybrid such as Celebrity, Big Boy, etc., or it can be a hybrid that was formed by an accidental cross pollination in the mater patch, or it can be a hybrid that was constructed deliberately by specific crossing of two known OP varieties, which is more and more common these days with home growers doing their own crosses. And the latter is what the Dwarf Project is all about with Patrina making the crosses to get the F1 seed and then those seeds sent to others for growout and selection and further dehybridization to the OP state.

patty_b · April 24, 2006

Ok...see if I have this right Sleepy is F1,(Patrina's deliberate cross), Sleepy's seeds are F2. (OP)

Andromeda is F1(the hybrid), Andromeda's OP seeds are F2 even if it is not stable(which it probably is not)? Or does the stable part only apply to the known Open Pollinated varieties? I have been calling these seedling F2's but wanted to be sure.....THanks, Patty

**carolyn137** · April 24, 2006

Patty,

Did you know that everything about the growouts for this dwarf project are posted and discussed in detail in the Research Forum?

There you can see what others are getting with the same cross that you have.

I'm not part of this project but I understand that Patrina did the crosses and sent the F1 seed to Craig who distributed that F1 seed to those who were participating.

And that this is the first year that folks are growing those F1 plants from the F1 seed and reporting back their results in that Research Forum here at Tville as well as some folks doing same at GW in that thread.

Any seeds you save from the F1 fruits would then be called F2 seeds.

But do go to the research Forum here where there are extensive discussions about the Dwarf Project.

April 23, 2006	#1
patty_b Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 487	Please explain F1, F2, etc..... I have Sleepy in the NH dwarf crosses growout and trying to learn the correct way to note crosses. I also have seedling this year that are from hybrid plants but no intentional crosses were made. Such as OP Andromeda, Momotaro, Sweet Baby Girl, and a couple others that I am not remembering. Do I call these seedling Andromeda F2.........then OP seed from that would be Andromeda F3 or do they need to be a choice cross to be so noted? I'm just not sure! Thanks, Patty

April 24, 2006	#3
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Keith has a really good link on this in another thread. Let's take it slow. Take two open pollinated varieties (as Patrina did with the dwarf crosses) - take pollen from one (male) and put onto the emasculated flower of the other (female) - if a tomato develops, it is the F1 hybrid; saved seed will be F1 (hybrid) seed, which is what we all have from Patrina. Theoretically, all seeds in an F1 are the same - and the fruit that comes from the cross will exhibit the various dominant traits. so, we are all growing these F1s from Patrina. If crossing does not happen, seeds saved from the fruits produced will be the F2 generation. They will give a mix of types - this is where the fun begins, because you start seeing different traits - both parents, as well as traits in between. Save seeds from the F2 fruit, you get the F3 generation, etc.... __________________ Craig

April 24, 2006	#4
veggiecanner Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Idaho Posts: 35	If I have saved seed for 2 generations from a open polinated seed that I recived in a trade. How should I refer to the seed? I have had a few persons refer to this as F1, F2 ect. But I am sure this is not right. __________________ zone 5/6 north Idaho

April 24, 2006	#5
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	If I have saved seed for 2 generations from a open polinated seed that I recived in a trade. How should I refer to the seed? I have had a few persons refer to this as F1, F2 ect. But I am sure this is not right. Since the variety was already OP it means it's already genetically stable and so you wouldn't ever use the terms F2, F2, F3, etc. Those terms are only used when starting with an F1 hybrid and saving seed in sequential steps to try and get it to the OP state. By definition OP's are genetically stable and self pollenization leads to seed that is still OP unless a mutation or an accidental cross pollination has occurred. When referring to a hybrid, it can be a known F1 hybrid such as Celebrity, Big Boy, etc., or it can be a hybrid that was formed by an accidental cross pollination in the mater patch, or it can be a hybrid that was constructed deliberately by specific crossing of two known OP varieties, which is more and more common these days with home growers doing their own crosses. And the latter is what the Dwarf Project is all about with Patrina making the crosses to get the F1 seed and then those seeds sent to others for growout and selection and further dehybridization to the OP state. __________________ Carolyn

April 24, 2006	#7
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Patty, Did you know that everything about the growouts for this dwarf project are posted and discussed in detail in the Research Forum? There you can see what others are getting with the same cross that you have. I'm not part of this project but I understand that Patrina did the crosses and sent the F1 seed to Craig who distributed that F1 seed to those who were participating. And that this is the first year that folks are growing those F1 plants from the F1 seed and reporting back their results in that Research Forum here at Tville as well as some folks doing same at GW in that thread. Any seeds you save from the F1 fruits would then be called F2 seeds. But do go to the research Forum here where there are extensive discussions about the Dwarf Project. __________________ Carolyn

April 23, 2006	#2
geol Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: NJ - 6/7 Posts: 109	It’s my understanding that the hybrid plant is the first generation (F1) that results from crossing two parental lines. Self-pollinated seed from a hybrid would be the second generation (F2) plant, and so on, as long as the line continues to self-pollinate. If crossed with outside pollen, a new hybrid (F1) seed is created.