sandul moldovan germination

[tjg911]

is this variety known as a rather difficult variety to germinate?

last year i had poor germination from sandul moldovan and i used all 20 or 25 seeds i got from mark korney which yielded just 2 or 3 plants. this year i bought seeds from tgs and they are just as difficult to germinate - i've planted seed twice and i have gotten just 1 from the 1st 8 seeds and just 1 from the 2nd 8 seeds. both plants are spindly with poor shaped leaves and very slow growth of those new leaves just like last year. like last year, i expect them to survive and do well but getting them to germinate is tough.

last year's plant (i kept 1 and gave the other 1 or 2 away) was in a 5 gallon container. relative to the other 11 in pails it grew and produced a bit better which is saying a lot! i'll never grow tomatoes in 5 gallon pails again but that's a whole different set of issues. my point is that 'for a container plant' i was pleased with the plant size and flavor of the tomatoes so this year i want to try it again in the garden.

just as a point of reference, i did not (i have never needed to.... ever) soak the seeds in water with a pinch of the blue stuff prior to planting. as a rule, i don't have problems germinating tomato seeds. neves azorean red (this year) and wes (last year and again this year) both did not have 100% germination either but at least i got 2-3 of each from the 6-8 seeds i started. sandul moldovan on the other hand is by far the most difficult tomato re germination i ever grew. even prue seeds from 1996 were germinating for me at an 88% rate in 2004 or 2005 when many people i sent seeds to had trouble germinating that variety. last year i had 20 varieties, this year 10 varieties and past years 6-8 varieties and i'd say that germination for op and a minor number of hybrid varieties in all those years was high for each variety except for sandul moldovan and wes.

is it coincidence or is sandul moldovan known to be difficult to germinate?

tom

[carolyn137]

Tom,

I'm the source of Sandul Moldovan, seeds received from the Sandul family when they immigrated to the Albany area in the early 1990's.

From the get go, and with saved seeds, I've never had any problems whatsoever in germinating this variety.

I can't speak to Mark's seeds since I don't know how old they were and all I can say about TGS seeds is that they do germination tests on all seeds sold and Linda is pretty particular about that.

Didn't you save seeds from the fruits of the plants you got from Mark's seeds originally?

And well you do know that many had problems with your 1996 Prue seeds when you didn't, so with so many variables about, there's really nothing more I say that would help in this situation.

[tjg911]

thanks carolyn, this is strange because i fully expected to hear sandul moldovan was difficult to germinate! it sure seems to the case for me!

to answer your question "Didn't you save seeds from the fruits of the plants you got from Mark's seeds originally?", no i id not. because they were so difficult to germinate, i wondered if mark inadvertantly selected seeds from plants that had a tendency to be slow/poor germinators. i never asked him. i also wondered how old the seed was. so i thought buying seed would at least provide me with seeds that are new. being a fan of tgs, they were the logical choice. yet with their seeds i am experiencing the same problem. this is really puzzling to me as i know how to do this and get good results... well usually. i assure you i'll save seeds this summer and a lot of them. i'd like to start 100 seeds in september because i wonder if this variety is more sensitive to the cold? i don't have a warm location for germinating seeds, if it's cold out the wood stove makes it rather warm inside. since 4/17 i haven't used the stove but a few times so the 2nd batch has had cooler room tempertures than the 1st did. yet that 1st batch was started when it was warmer in the house. this is a mystery to me! thanks for your input.

tom

[where_with_all]

For what its worth I grew Sandul moldovan last year and they took forever to germinate. They were the last seeds to sprout. I thought I did something wrong, but may be not. My source was TGS.

[tjg911]

update, of the 2 seeds that did germinate, both plants are growing well and quite healthy.

[michael johnson]

I think you will find that generaly the main problem with non germinating seeds- is that at the moment too many people are off loading old to very old seeds onto the tomato seed circuit, if you can find a scource that has fresh seeds , by fresh I mean realy fresh ( last seasons 2005 crop ) your problems will be over.

In the case of on line seed suppliers TGS or otherwise I think they are either saving some varieties from stock for several years before renewing them, or - the growers who supply them with seed are passing on seed that is aready three years old or more.

One supplier over here in the UK called (Seeds of Distinction)- used to have that problem from suppliers of all types of seed , melons, aubergines, peppers, tomatoes etc. until one day they decided to stock only seed from the previous seasons crop- every new season on jan/feb the supplies came to hand, no seed was sent out before then, and since that time they have never looked back, and gone from strength to strength-with rapidly increasing customers each season.

On the other side of the tomato seed circle- with seed exchange and seed sharing- I am absolutly convinced is the main problem is the largest single contributing factor to the non germination problem, far too many people are off loading old seed ,-to very old seed onto the circuit possibly without realising it, and the harm they are doing.

What has been happening is this- someone decides to obtain a selection of rare to semi rare tomato seeds from some tomato celebrity grower or well known grower and enthusiast, which are probably up to three years old when they receive them- and they probably germinate ok for them that season, instead of saving fresh seed from there own grown stock, they then go on and share in exchanges etc, with others the following season any seed they might have left over from the original stock- perhaps ten seeds of each if you are lucky, those same people who then do the same the next season and by that time we are probably down to four seeds or less being received by the next person in line,by which time the original seeds are up to eight to ten years old or more-as not all the people involved will share the seeds the folowing season- some might sit on them for a season or two before sharing them again, and so it goes on, by that time you are almost down to nil or none germination.


Another extremely annoying problem is that certain growers from all over the world often offer rare tomatoes -they claim to be rare, each season that goes by- with a seed limit in each pkt of three or four seeds, rather than twenty or thirty seeds. this goes on season after season on the same varieties- I cant quite understand why they dont simply growout these varieties themselves and increase their stock a hundredfold-from one plant you can get a thousand seeds easily, the situation is slightly different though if they have only obtained a new variety the previous season and are still stock seed building, but the former offerings of three or four seeds season after season on the same varieties is to my way of thinking creating an artificial rarity.

In order to solve the main problem - if only people would stop totaly- off loading rare seeds onto the tomato circuit scene,that are donkeys years old, and totaly ditch and dump the whole caboosh into the bin, and replacing their stock with new previous seasons crop seeds- ( which is so very-very easy to do )- most of the non germination seed problems would be solved- ( not all"- but most! ).

[carolyn137]

Michael,

You keep going on and on and making conclusions and suggestions about who is selling what, who is sending what to whom as to old seeds, new seeds, seeds of rare varieties, seeds of non- rare varieties, and to be honest, I don't think any progress is being made by doing so.

Fresh seeds ( to be defined) do better than older seeds( to be defined).

No one has any way of knowing the true age of seeds sold in the US by commercial folks since for only some of them is the packed by date given and that's when they were packed, not when they were produced.

I have no idea what your definition of rare is. What's rare to you may be common to others.

Both Craig and myself have made seed offers where we've distributed seed that was very old for many varieties that folks otherwise would not be able to obtain, for the most part, unless SSE members.

You'd be amazed how many folks got close to 90% germination with my 1993 Red Brandywine seeds.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, and again, and again, and that's that the major difference I see in the germination of seeds is due to individual differences and not due to the seed per se.

When I distribute seed for Cherokee Green and that seed was produced in 2004 and I see different folks, all with the same exact seed, getting diifferences in germination from zero to mostly 100% what would you conclude?

When I distribute seed for Tricorn Hat that's from 1991 and see different folks getting anywheres from zero to about 50%, what would you conclude?

After dealing with new seeds, old seeds, folks who are good at germinating seeds and those who aren't, rare seeds, common seeds, and on and on, for as many years as I have, as well as a few others here, I think you'd have a very different perspective on the situation of seeds, commercial suppliers, and all that you write about in that regard, and so wouldn't continue to write as though you thought threre was some kind of conspiracy going on in the tomato seed world.

[michael johnson]

I never thought for one moment that there was some sort of conspiracy going on in the tomato seed world.

Far from it in fact, its simply that obvious that people do this by annual habit each season almost to the point of automation , without actualy stopping to think what they are actualy doing first, and can only lead to a degenerative state of affairs.

I cant for the life of me see- why you cant see this- its as plain as the nose on your face.

As a typical example lets take the theory of the survival of the fittest, if one keeps introducing weak and old subjects into the bloodline it will eventualy die out somewhere along the line, but if one keeps adding fit strong young blood to the chain it will flourish and grow and be vigorous.


I realy cant see why you cant grasp that situation.

Next season- it would be very nice if people saw the light, and all this stopped, and during all of next season the majority of people got high germination from all the seeds they obtained- be it from a commercial seed supplier or private mutual exchange.

As a typical example of what I mean- I recently received two seperate exchange deals, each one contained three pkts of tomato seeds, two of their own saved previous seasons crop or 2004 crop, and one pkt of some seeds they got from somewhere else in an exchange.

In each case the own saved seeds germinated with full vigor-no probs, but the other seeds did not, not a glimmer of germination from them after four weeks.

I think that demonstrates without question, what I have been trying to say all along -in crystal.

[Dukerdawg]

Michael, I really don't see the need to make comments such as this. It reflects poorly on you personally, and does nothing in whatever argument you are attempting to perpetuate.

I think there are a great deal of variables at play in regards to seed starting.

Here is an example. Kelloggs Breakfast seed 7 years old. I had zero germination the first 2 years....with new seed.

This year I planted the same seed...now 7 years old and got 80%. How do I attest for this? I really can't answer. Some varieties take longer than others...regardless of age. I would say my example may have been an anamoly, since I would guess generally speaking fresh seed is best.

But your blanket assumptions on a worldwide basis simply cannot be validated, thus, you are entitled to your opinion, but I would appreciate it if you were a bit more gentlemanly with Ms. Carolyn. I would rather we act in accordance with Tomatoville ethics and stop with the snide remarks. Thanks in advance.

Duane

[bcday]

I haven't tried Sandul Moldovan so I don't know anything about its germination characteristics. But I'm sure that not all of Michael's seed germination troubles stem from old seeds. I have three varieties growing right now from seed saved by Carolyn in 1994 and Craig in 1995. I got 85%, 94%, and 97% germination with those old seeds and they are all growing into lovely large healthy plants, so it should be quite clear that there is no weakness in those "bloodlines".

Something else has to be going on if seeds less than ten years old have poor germination, whether it is improper storage, improper processing before storage, something gone wrong after the seed is sown, or whatever.

I do appreciate knowing the age of the seeds, but I think it's unnecessary to limit my choices to only those seeds that I know are from last seasons 2005 crop. I think there would be very few varieties to choose from if I did that, because a good many growers know full well that tomato seed does not drop significantly in viability for years if properly processed and stored. So they rotate their grow-outs, and the number of varieties available strictly from last year's harvest by experienced growers would only be 1/2 to 1/5 of what they normally offer.

If you only want seed from last year's harvest in a private trade, you need to make that arrangement with the other party in advance. Myself, I don't think it's necessary, because there are far too many other factors at either end of the transaction that can affect the viability of the seed.

[travis]

Oh I guess there can be many explanations for slow or low germination.

When I was germinating all those hundreds of seeds this February and March, I prematurely concluded a lot of bunk regarding variations in germination rates and causes of nonrespondant seeds.

Fact is, now that I've got most of my plants in the ground or in larger containers, it seems some of the slowest germinators are now outpacing plants that sprung readily out of their seed casings and exhibited more vigor as week-old or month-old seedlings. The best example of this is the Ramapo F5s Barkeater sent me and the Earl's Faux. Those seeds exhibited a pitiful germination rate, yet they are about the most rampant plants I have!

I think it has to do with individual characteristics of the varieties coupled with not-so-scientific methods I may have employed when germinating the seeds. Hey, it's tomatoes here folks, not rocket science.

So, I think until one really conducts scientifically sound tests and comparisons, it would be unfair and unfounded to assume that one's poor results are caused by individual collectors or commercial vendors sending out old seed.

Case in point ... some of my very good germination rates came from seeds I got last year from the Chuck Wyatt place and were being sold at 50c per pack clearance rates (presumably very old seeds).

Bottom line: Where I had poor germination rates, chances are it was caused by me. :wink:

PV

[vegomatic]

Another factor to consider is the general health or vigor of the parent plant and the maturity of the fruit when the seeds are harvested for saving.

This was more obvious to me with some pepper seeds I saved from an immature fruit. The dried seeds were thin and wispy and germination is nilch.

It never hurts to sprout seeds before planting. You can monitor them and only plant those that you see have sprouted, plus it's easier to keep them nice and warm. I use a styrofoam tray with the seeds laid in a damp, folded papertowel. I tuck the tray into a big ziplock bag and set it on top of my fluorescent lights.

-Ed

[michael johnson]

Dukerdawg- I fail to see how this reflects poorly on me personaly, all I am after as a person is some sort of solution to the vast amount of non -germination seeds that are afloat on the tomato circle at the moment, is it so much to ask - for any particular person to expect good quality seeds as the norm, anything less is totaly unacceptable -wouldnt you say!.

So Far this season my non-germinators has risen yet again since last time,- it is now 24 varieties of totaly dead seed. and 10 varieties with partial germination of perhaps one or two germinated out of a sowing of ten to 12 seeds,- less than acceptable standards as a whole- wouldnt you say.

Snide Remarks- quite frankly I have no idea what your talking about- I cant see anything in my posts that are snide, pointed, or otherwise, do you realy think that I would perputrate such words, and use any particular name or company with snide remarks, I think you are reading too much into what I say and letting your imagination run away with you.

I am simply putting forward a strong case for change within the standards of tomato seed distribution circles, be it commercial or private mutual exchange.

Carolyn keeps on saying- that I keep going on and on about it, over and over again,- wouldnt you!- if you had 24 non germinating varieties this season- and ten near misses, thats a total of 34 varieties with less that acceptable performance, and I do know practicaly every trick in the book to aid germination , with years of experiance at it.

All that I am trying to do as a whole is paving the way to a much better season next season with most of the seeds that I obtain being of good quality and of totaly acceptable standards for a change,dont missunderstand me when I say that because lots of the seeds I have already had this season so far, have been totaly fine.

[tanagerzoo]

Well, I think of myself as being pretty darn good at germinating seeds. I typically have extraordinary success. I've read up on all the tricks in the book and have tried many of them. Often with great success.

Then, this year, I got a good-- --I received some Earl's Faux through the SSE yearbook. I sent off half a dozen of those seeds to a person in the UK. I couldn't for the life of me get those seeds to germinate. Finally, I lucked out, after planting every seed I had and got 2 healthy seedlings. Virginia Sweets--I planted every seed I had and got nothing. I emailed the guy I traded with in the UK and apologized profusely for the seed quality. He told me I had nothing to apolgize for--all of his popped up. So it isn't the mail system--his went through 2 mailings, mine only 1. Obviously it's ME! What I'm doing wrong I can't say--my other seeds germinated quite well. But it will be something I will be thinking about this winter when I need to think less about snow and more about summer! :wink:

So, Michael, I'm just going to say it: intead of worrying so much about the other guy, why don't you look a little closer to home and investigate your own actions. I know you think you're doing everything *perfectly* and that it can't possibly be your own methods and that it MUST be the postal system or the seed companies MUST be selling 25 year old seeds--or at least ones buried in Egyptian tombs--to you personally and not to anyone else.

If you look to the negative, you'll find it. In other words, if you ask people on public forums, "did you have trouble with seed germination" of course you'll find a zillion people raising their hands. But, by the same token, you ask "did anyone NOT have trouble..." you'll also find a zillion people raising hands.

Yes, there will be some bad seed and whatnot, but all that comes along with territory of gardening. So you had a bad year. Well, maybe it was bad luck, or maybe you are doing something a tad differently this year.

Christine

[Dukerdawg]

never thought for one moment that there was some sort of conspiracy going on in the tomato seed world.

Far from it in fact, its simply that obvious that people do this by annual habit each season almost to the point of automation , without actualy stopping to think what they are actualy doing first, and can only lead to a degenerative state of affairs.

I cant for the life of me see- why you cant see this- its as plain as the nose on your face.

If I read too much into that plain as the nose on your face business, I apologize. However it seems you are contradicting yoursellf with that second paragragh. If folks are seed saving every year 'to the point of automation' how is that translating to old seed banks which lead to a 'degenerative state of affairs'...?????

I guess what I am getting at here is just you trying to point a finger at somebody else because you are having a difficult time with germination. Look within old chap, look within. Seriously, Michael....there are really so many variables, what with SSE and private swaps and commercial ventures that the simplest tactic is one which I would dare most of us use. Plant extra seed and if you have a bonus number on germination and end of with extra plants ....give them to neighbors, sell them for extra gardening money or what have you.

If I want 3-4...I might end up with a dozen or 2.

Seems to me kind of a crap shoot and not worth trying to solve a problem by endless complaining which accomplishes nothing.