When should I really have started?

supergirl · July 13, 2006

Last year was my first year really trying to grow tomatoes, and I started with purchased seedlings. But then, I became a tomato forum addict and learned about all the varieties I should have been growing. Since many (most) of the plants I got last year ended up being mislabeled, this year I decided to grow from seed. It's worked out pretty well, definitely still learning, but I have 12 nice big plants out, including Carbon, Neve's Azorean Red, and Kellogg's Breakfast. However, reading others' posts about ripe tomatoes now, I have a feeling I started my seed and planned to plant out much later than I needed to.

I'm in zone 9b, in Silicon Valley. The trick here is that while it never gets really cold -- maybe a couple of very light frosts during the whole winter-- it always, even in the summer, cools down in the evening. I am fortunately out of the fog belt and get nice warm summer temps. I was aiming for nighttime temps above 50 when I planted them out and that doesn't really happen until May. So everything went out the first week of May. They're doing great, really thick stems (much bigger than the purchased ones last year), lots of green tomatoes, but nothing even starting to blush yet (which makes sense, given that I have no early toms out there.) Reading that folks in colder zones have been picking for a few weeks, I think I was over-cautious. Could I put them out sometime in April next year? Should I just be looking for "not freezing" as opposed to "above 50"? I'm growing on a south-facing deck in containers, next to the house, so I also wonder if being in a relatively sheltered environment would mean they could have gone out earlier as well. It did seem like it was more than 8 weeks to really have nice big stocky seedlings to put out, more like 10-12, but I have a new light setup for next year that I'm hoping will help with that.

feldon30 · July 13, 2006

I hesitate to give this advice after basically being called an idiot on that other forum for giving this advice, but I'm going to try anyway. Other people have different results and defy the odds, so don't take any of this as gospel.

For those of us in growing zones 7, 8, 9, and 10, there are really TWO zones we need to consider. Here in Houston, our USDA Plant Hardiness Zone (risk of frost) is 8b, and our USDA Plant Heat Zone is 9. For you in Silicon Valley, if Google Maps is correct, your USDA Plant Hardiness Zone is 9b, but your USDA Plant Heat Zone is 5 or 6. This means that while we in Houston get 120-150 days per year over 86 degrees, you only get about 30-45 days per year over 86 degrees.

I'm going to say that the likelihood of tomatoes setting fruit (turning blossoms into tomatoes) decreases as the temperature goes above 85 degrees. High humidity exacerbates the problem. Generally speaking, I want to say that tomatoes will rarely set fruit if evening temps don't get below 75 and high temps are breaching 95 and humidity is high.

So what's the point of all this?

I'm thinking in Silicon Valley, you have a VERY flexible growing season and are not encumbered by the 3 month piercingly hot summer that causes most of us in S.E Texas to actually pull our plants out of the ground and start over with a second batch of tomato plants in early August.

So instead of having to plant seeds at a certain time to try to get the maximum number of tomatoes BEFORE summer, I think a better way of looking at this is, when is the earliest you can safely plant tomatoes? I'm hoping that unlike Houston, you can keep your tomato plants alive for those few weeks of hot days and then get back into production without missing a beat. Note that any DEterminate tomato plant varieties you've put out (Celebrity, most of the hybrids) will produce one or two flushes of fruit and then stop. It's generally the INdeterminate tomato plant varieties like Brandywine, Earl's Faux, Cherokee Purple, Druzba, etc. that keep pumping out fruit for months.

I intend to start tomato seeds this December. They will be very large transplants (12-18" tall in 1 gallon pots) ready to go into the ground on or about March 1st. It's very important to watch the weather forecasts and see if any days are going to get in the danger zone (under 36 degrees). If they are and you have already planted out in the garden, you can wrap blankets over the tomato cages, you can use milk cartons with the bottom cut off and the top screwed on, you can use wastebaskets, basically anything to keep the plants from freezing.

So if you're asking for seeding dates for your area, here are my best guesses:

January 15th
June 25th

That will allow you to plant out 8-12" large, healthy transplants out in mid-March and mid-to-late August (if you feel you need to do some different varieties in the fall, your spring tomato plants got diseased, or you missed the spring start).

I guess I'm on a little crusade (apologize for the word, but it fits) to let Texans in on a little secret. Buying those little transplants at Home Depot in April and planting them will not get you many tomatoes. You've got to be proactive and seek out (or grow your own) large transplants in March and try to beat the clock. There'll always be someone who says "My tomato plants eat 95 degree temps for breakfast and still pump out tomatoes."

I've got 45 tomato transplants going right now under a fluorescent shoplight and they seem to be doing well.

If anyone disagrees with anything I've said, please say so or forever hold your grudges.

supergirl · July 13, 2006

Thanks, Feldon. Really, I'm just trying to figure out how much earlier in the spring I should have planted out. Don't know where I got the impression that I was supposed to wait till it didn't go below 50 (I think that's eggplant). Our average low most of the winter is around 40, and it's in the 40s for all of April.

You're correct that I don't really have to worry about the summer heat. My plants that go in in the spring will keep going pretty much all summer (they're all indeterminate). I can't remember exactly when I pulled them up last year, but I would guess in October, though it may have been Nov. The 30-45 days above 85 degrees that you found for my area sounds high; I think it's more like 20-30. I don't think we have more than 5-10 days a summer where it doesn't cool down below 75 at night. So, I plan to just keep going with the same plants and not doing a fall planting. They're cranking out toms now. I'm just impatient for some ripe ones and feeling silly that I don't have any yet here in zone 9!

feldon30 · July 13, 2006

I'm jealous of your growing zone

travis · July 13, 2006

Feldon,

Have you considered setting out a few plants from varieties that have been developed specifically to set fruit in high temps?

PV

feldon30 · July 14, 2006

I am growing Arkansas Traveler and Jet Star this fall. Working on accumulating any non-insipid heat-tolerant varieties I can get my hands on.

Eva Purple Ball is actually supposed to handle some heat and I've got a couple of transplants of it going.

I guess I'm hoping that Houston doesn't get an early frost and my tomato plants continue to produce through November and December as some have reported in the past. This is all new to me.

username5 · July 14, 2006

Well, I am nowhere near your zone so can't comment on that.

I am in zone 5 Wisconsin and generally set my plants out on Memorial day which is also around the date of the 'average' last frost.

Inevitably the plants just sit there for a few weeks, the leaves get pest eaten/diseased and then the warmer weather kicks in and they take off.

The moral? Don't try to rush things. In my zone I kind of have to for the long season crops, but in yours it doesn't sound like you need to worry about cold killing your plants.

Also, while I think air temp plays a role I believe soil temp is more critical to growth.

If your nights are 40F I wouldn't advise putting plants in the ground, but in my zone if nights are 40F then days are 40-55F or so. If your days are warmer than that then go ahead and try it, who knows? I mean you could always use row covers early in the season to mitigate the chilly nights and see what happens.

I guess all I am saying is go ahead and play around. Things vary so much from garden to garden that it is difficult to say something will or won't work. I *know* you can't grow tomatos in the snow, but other than that I am not sure about anything. Now stand by for someone to post pics of tomatos growing in snow

supergirl · July 14, 2006

I'll ask my parents about growing in the snow.

I'm a relocated cheesehead myself, and my family is all back in Wisconsin still. My mom can't believe the things I can grow here -- I'm just thrilled to be able to grow freesia and ranunculus out in the garden. I do miss things like peonies and lilacs that just don't do that well here though!

Days here in the winter are generally in the 50s, can be 60s, but rain, rain, rain (4 roof leaks worth last winter, finally got the flat part replaced this year)! Come to think of it, that's another reason I waited until late - we had rain even in May, which is freakish for here!

travis · July 14, 2006

Feldon,

I may be mistaken, but I think Arkansas Traveler is an extinct cultivar, and that the 2 cultivars named Traveler and Traveler 76 may have been developed in the 70s with some heat tolerance for setting blossoms.

I didn't know Jet Star was heat tolerant to any particlar extent. Is it?

And I'm talkin' 'bout Spring plantin' not fall crops ... so, if you want to extend your blossom set season into some of the hotter days with OP varieties, have you considered Creole, Gulf State Market, Sioux and Super Sioux?

But I was wondering would you consider some of the newer hybrids developed specifically for hot humid climes like Shady Lady, the "Sun bunch" and especially Sunmaster which is advertised to set blossoms in 96* days/82* nights and develop "full tomato flavor."

I know your feelings on hybrids, but it seems that you could buy a packet of 30 seeds of Sunmaster, for example, from TGS for 2.65, plant a few next Spring to test out how they perform and how you like the flavor, and still have plenty of seeds for the next few Springs ... or better yet, start them all and share some seedlings with your Houston tomato gardeners ... see how they do in several gardens around town.

You might even start a community dehyb grow-out of a hotbox cultivar ... who knows. :wink:

PV

Fert1 · July 14, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by feldon27

I am growing Arkansas Traveler and Jet Star this fall. Working on accumulating any non-insipid heat-tolerant varieties I can get my hands on.

You've probably seen me post this before, but Rose seems to hold up well to our heat here in SC. It is one of the few really tasty varieties that does. I could wish for more even ripening, but you can't have everything I suppose. Some swear by Cherokee Purple, but my CP always shuts down in the heat. I have to agree it tastes good though. Kellogg's Breakfast held up pretty well for me too, but I found the flavor to be a little odd, not bad, just odd.

feldon30 · July 14, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by username5

I am in zone 5 Wisconsin and generally set my plants out on Memorial day which is also around the date of the 'average' last frost.

Inevitably the plants just sit there for a few weeks, the leaves get pest eaten/diseased and then the warmer weather kicks in and they take off.

Unfortunately in Houston, we don't have that choice. If I do my clear plastic faux greenhouse and warm the soil with black plastic maybe that will help on the temperatures. Gonna have a space heater and all that.

Also are you sure the plants aren't setting better roots during that time of no noticeable above ground growth?

feldon30 · July 14, 2006

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