Varieties,seed starting mix and time

[va.0488]

After a few weeks of reading about tomato varieties, I came up with a list for trial, and I allmost made my mind about witch one to grow most, but because what `farmers` around here choose, I also have a bit of doubt. It`s also the fact that most of the hybrids I read about can`t be found here (except a few, including big beef) ,and vice versa, the ones that are being sold here I can't find info about them.

First let me tell you about the weather here:
-The average last frost date is 22 april; earliest 23 march, latest 22 may.
-The average first frost date is 14 oct; earliest 14 sept, latest 19 nov.
-Summer: very hot, exceeding 100 deg F; the nights are also warm;
-Spring and autumn: warm during the day, quite cold in the nights.
-In the last years, few rains (last year allmost none), but in the past we had alot of rains.


Farmers around here choose varieties like Belle F1, Lady Rosa F1 (both have a LSL gene for longer storage), Shirley F1, Cristal F1, Tamaris F1, Marissa F1, Francesca F1, and others.

What I thought:

Main crop:
Big Beef
Celebrity (not many though, the main target will be to have tomatoes for the whole season)

Testing (I`m also looking for an outside variety):
Early Girl
CELEBRITY
Bella Rosa
BUSH EARLY GIRL
SunGOLD
Jetsetter
Jet Star
Opalka
Black Cherry
JULIET
Rutgers
Gardener's Delight
Carbon
Tamina
Alicante
Principe Borghese
Legend
Glacier
Super Marmande
Stupice


Final place for them will be a greenhouse; for a planting scheme of 27.6" x 15.7", It will be 2000 seedlings(the greenhouse is ~46ft x 131ft).

Q1: is this a good planting scheme? Some around here say 31.5" x 23.6" is a must . I`ll `train` them on wire.

Q2: Is big beef the best option? My primary goal is to get the investment back (and fast, because I`ve already lost 1 year of production(took longer than expected to build the gosh darnoodley things), so not many left till I have to buy new polythene covers). I`ll apreciate any suggestions(even for next year), but because it`s too late to order seeds from abroad, do you know any of the ones I mentioned earlier(the ones most used here)?

Q3: What to choose for planting outside?

Q4: I want to start seeds on 11 feb ( inspired by the `moon planting` .. ), and transplant in the greenhouse before the middle of april. (ideally for me would be begining of apr; some say it should be done at the end of march ...(after 25th) (being in the greenhouse, and temps usually not going bellow 35-37F outside after mid-march). What do you think?


I want to lay black polythene mulch a couple of weeks before transplanting outside (directly into the ground, mind you), and when the temperatures get high, mulch with wheat straws.

Q5: Is it late, to incorporate composted (sheep and cow) manure? how much of it should I spread(ofcourse,after tilth the soil.)?

Q6: even I knew It was late, I planted tomatoes last year; and ... to my shame, they are still there. What should I use to treat the soil?

I can`t get hold of any `fancy` seed starting mix, the only ones I can buy are universal; description says : 70% blond peat(0-5 millimeters) (I just searched it and somewhere says "Once it has dried, it is hard to rehydrate." ) and 30% Black peat; pH:5.5-6.5; Aqua Flow.

Last year we bought some type of peat, and after it dried, the water would run off from the surface/or it wouldn`t want to go in.

Q7:I`ve asked around, and some say you shouldn`t let it dry (witch is a bad thing ... too much water there), and some say to mix it like this: 25% of the stuff, 25% composted manure, 25% black dirt (from the woods), and 10% sand. Back in the day, the seeding mix was like this, but without the peat; this mix is still used by some (because ... it`s cheap).I don`t know where to find peat moss, perlite, garden lime, or pine barks ... so .. any thoughts on how should I proceed?

That`s it for now ... Thank you for reading!

Some pictures:
http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/...ps039df71e.jpg

http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0adf462a.jpg

http://i1300.photobucket.com/albums/...psee349587.jpg

The bigger one will `host` tomatoes; a smaller one with peppers, and the other with beans, and after that possibly, cucumbers.

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by va.0488

After a few weeks of reading about tomato varieties, I came up with a list for trial, and I all most made my mind about witch one to grow most, but because what `farmers` around here choose, I also have a bit of doubt. It`s also the fact that most of the hybrids I read about can`t be found here (except a few, including big beef) ,and vice versa, the ones that are being sold here I can't find info about them.

First let me tell you about the weather here:
-The average last frost date is 22 april; earliest 23 march, latest 22 may.
-The average first frost date is 14 oct; earliest 14 sept, latest 19 nov.
-Summer: very hot, exceeding 100 deg F; the nights are also warm;
-Spring and autumn: warm during the day, quite cold in the nights.
-In the last years, few rains (last year allmost none), but in the past we had alot of rains.

That sounds like parts of our midwest. Somebody who has similar weather will post after awhile

Farmers around here choose varieties like Belle F1, Lady Rosa F1 (both have a LSL gene for longer storage), Shirley F1, Cristal F1, Tamaris F1, Marissa F1, Francesca F1, and others.

I don't know their goals or problem

What I thought:

Main crop:
Big Beef
Celebrity (not many though, the main target will be to have tomatoes for the whole season)

Testing (I`m also looking for an outside variety):
Early Girl
CELEBRITY
Bella Rosa
BUSH EARLY GIRL
SunGOLD
Jetsetter
Jet Star
Opalka
Black Cherry
JULIET
Rutgers
Gardener's Delight
Carbon
Tamina
Alicante
Principe Borghese
Legend
Glacier
Super Marmande
Stupice

Not a bad selection. It will depend on what kind of tomatoes or plants you can sell.

Final place for them will be a greenhouse; for a planting scheme of 27.6" x 15.7", It will be 2000 seedlings(the greenhouse is ~46ft x 131ft).



Q1: is this a good planting scheme? Some around here say 31.5" x 23.6" is a must . I`ll `train` them on wire.

I don't know why you are planning on growing them in a greenhouse all year with temperatures in the 100's and warm nights. Unless you put shade cloth on it, I think the plants are going to over heat. The spacing you have calculated is leaving no room for aisles. What you are proposing will be the most dense tomato jungle you've ever seen.

Q3: What to choose for planting outside?

I think most of the ones you have listed are normally grown outside. What disease problems are you dealing with?

Q4: I want to start seeds on 11 feb ( inspired by the `moon planting` .. ), and transplant in the greenhouse before the middle of april. (ideally for me would be begining of apr; some say it should be done at the end of march ...(after 25th) (being in the greenhouse, and temps usually not going bellow 35-37F outside after mid-march). What do you think?

I think you should be good.

I want to lay black polythene mulch a couple of weeks before transplanting outside (directly into the ground, mind you), and when the temperatures get high, mulch with wheat straws.

It should provide a good weed barrier.

Q5: Is it late, to incorporate composted (sheep and cow) manure? how much of it should I spread(ofcourse,after tilth the soil.)?

I wouldn't do too much because too much nitrogen means all plant and few tomatoes.

Q6: even I knew It was late, I planted tomatoes last year; and ... to my shame, they are still there. What should I use to treat the soil?

What diseases did they have?

I can`t get hold of any `fancy` seed starting mix, the only ones I can buy are universal; description says : 70% blond peat(0-5 millimeters) (I just searched it and somewhere says "Once it has dried, it is hard to rehydrate." ) and 30% Black peat; pH:5.5-6.5; Aqua Flow.

Last year we bought some type of peat, and after it dried, the water would run off from the surface/or it wouldn`t want to go in.

That's the nature of peat. It will soak up water over a day or so. It also tends to stay wet. Peppers I've started in it didn't grow so well. I suspect it's too acid for peppers.

Q7:I`ve asked around, and some say you shouldn`t let it dry (witch is a bad thing ... too much water there), and some say to mix it like this: 25% of the stuff, 25% composted manure, 25% black dirt (from the woods), and 10% sand. Back in the day, the seeding mix was like this, but without the peat; this mix is still used by some (because ... it`s cheap).I don`t know where to find peat moss, perlite, garden lime, or pine barks ... so .. any thoughts on how should I proceed?

Peat moss is mined here or in Canada and I would think in the British Isles. The parent mineral to perlite is mined I believe in the western US.

Peat moss is used to hold water and because it's cheap. Garden lime is used to raise the ph of the peat. It is finely ground limestone. The sand and pine bark fines are used to improve the texture of the peat and again because they are cheap. The compost to provide fertility and texture to the mix.

You can use any combination of material that will hold water but not too much. I wouldn't be opposed to starting seed in just woods dirt, which is basically composted leaves and wood.

[dice]

This is a very old document, nearly 100 years old, so some of its
advice will be obsolete (some of the fertilizers, disease treatments,
etc). In Starting the Tomato Plant, the author describes a hot-bed
method that was once in wide use that you may find useful. What
he calls "glass hot-bed sash" is simply a glass window in a frame
that covers the top of the frame around the hot-bed. You should
be able to open and close it.

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/v...carver-tomato/

Here is a picture of a similar hot-bed on a smaller scale:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...otbed05029.jpg
(I seem to remember that he covered the ends at night in
case of frosts until the plants were transplanted into the garden.)

The climate of the area where the author of the first document
was working gets similarly hot in the summer, but not as cool at
night in spring and fall.

Big Beef and Jetsetter should do well either inside or outside.
See this thread: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=18309
Note that she grows in an area with hot summers, and that she replaces
the plastic covers with shade cloth once the weather gets hot. (You
could simply cover the plastic with shade cloth if you do not want to
remove it, and open the ends and/or sides.)

If you want to do the hot-bed seed-starting method but lack horse
manure, you can mix the cow and sheep manure with straw to
make it more like horse manure. Its purpose is simply to provide
heat of decomposition, and for that it needs the air space that horse
manure naturally has and that mixed in straw will provide to cow and/or
sheep manure. I would not worry about exact proportions.

edit:
General guide to fertilizing with manure:
http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublicatio...33/pnw0533.pdf
(This might have the timing you were looking for. Lacking better
information, I would guess that amending the soil with it six
weeks before plantout should be plenty for fresh manure.)

[Redbaron]

It is not too late to incorporate compost. In fact it will help a lot.

[va.0488]

Thanks for your replys.

Originally Posted by Doug9345

I don't know their goals or problem

Well, their goals is to choose a performant variety, witch makes beautiful fruits(bright/intense red), alot of them, starting early and ending very late, witch aren`t squishy, and can be stored for longer. This happens to be my goals too.

Originally Posted by Doug9345

I don't know why you are planning on growing them in a greenhouse all year with temperatures in the 100's and warm nights. Unless you put shade cloth on it, I think the plants are going to over heat. The spacing you have calculated is leaving no room for aisles. What you are proposing will be the most dense tomato jungle you've ever seen.

I`ll grow them in a greenhouse because it gives me a few weeks advantage over outside grown crops, also later in autumn(these 2 are the most important); also nicer looking fruits, the possibility to put shade cloth; if it`ll be a rainy year, better fruits. The sides will also be lowered.
So, what spacing do you suggest?

Originally Posted by Doug9345

I think most of the ones you have listed are normally grown outside. What disease problems are you dealing with?

Have no idea about diseases;

Originally Posted by Doug9345

What diseases did they have?

I`ve seen some brown stems; don`t know yet what was that about, but they had little to no water, high tems.
I know it`s most important to know the diseases in your garden, but I`m overwhelmed with everything, and I don`t know where to begin to discover them; I didn`t pay any attention last year; I`ll take notes this year.

Originally Posted by Doug9345

You can use any combination of material that will hold water but not too much. I wouldn't be opposed to starting seed in just woods dirt, which is basically composted leaves and wood.

When I`ll water, will it not get too compact(the woods dirt)(here I`m talking about soil from the woods)?

The proportions in the first post are a bit wrong; either 25% sand, or adjust the other ones, maintaining a 10% ratio for sand.

[va.0488]

Originally Posted by dice

If you want to do the hot-bed seed-starting method but lack horse manure, you can mix the cow and sheep manure with straw to make it more like horse manure. Its purpose is simply to provide heat of decomposition, and for that it needs the air space that horse manure naturally has and that mixed in straw will provide to cow and/or sheep manure. I would not worry about exact proportions.

I have a nursery where to start the seedlings, constructed by my father: it`s about 2/3 in the ground, with 2 big pipes, in witch I put sawdust and burn it(a furnace). There are 2 beds on top of them. My worry is what to use as seed starting mix.

Thank you all for taking the time to reply.

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by va.0488

Thanks for your replys.

I`ll grow them in a greenhouse because it gives me a few weeks advantage over outside grown crops, also later in autumn(these 2 are the most important); also nicer looking fruits, the possibility to put shade cloth; if it`ll be a rainy year, better fruits. The sides will also be lowered.

I figure a sunny day at 35ºC without wind and even with the sides open that greenhouse is going to reach 50ºC+

So, what spacing do you suggest?

I'm not a greenhouse grower but as a starting point look at this thread.
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=26382.
Also ask the question in the general discussion area.

When I`ll water, will it not get too compact(the woods dirt)(here I`m talking about soil from the woods)?

The proportions in the first post are a bit wrong; either 25% sand, or adjust the other ones, maintaining a 10% ratio for sand.

I'd experiment with it. Put some in pots and water it. See if it acts like it is too wet in an hour, then 6 hours, then overnight.

[dice]

One problem that we have been having in the US with manure
is contamination with aminopyralid (and other broadleaf herbicides
used by hay farmers that are not digested by animals and end up
in their manure). These chemicals can interfere with tomatoes and
other vegetables at very low concentrations and take years to break
down in the soil. I do not know if you have the problem in Romania,
because I do not know if herbicides containing those chemicals are
sold there, and if they are do farmers use them.

This is a method for testing manure or compost with pea plants
to see if it is contaminated. Takes 2-3 weeks:
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/aminopyralid/bioassay.html

Some pictures of plants grown in contaminated soil:
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/aminopyralid/

Row spacing: If you are growing single stem plants on strings, you
can go 4 feet between rows and 16 inches between plants in the row.
If you are growing multi-stem plants, figure 6-7 feet between rows
and a pace between plants in the row. The wider row spacing is
appropriate for field tomatoes. (You need room to work between
rows. Pruning, trimming, inspecting for insects and disease, harvesting,
etc. Better air flow reduces fungus disease pressure, too.)

[va.0488]

thank you dice, and Doug9345.

I`m fairly sure I won`t have a problem with manure contamination(herbicides aren`t that popular in my area .. yet(well .. my source doesn`t use any).

I`ll have to buy the seeds very soon, .. this is the most important task at the moment ...; any ideas? anyone?
Maybe I`ve asked to much ... in one tread .... and people don`t care to write that much ...; let`s make this the only question for now.

I must admit that I`m waiting for carolyn137`s reply most, but also from anyone! What would you do, what variety would you choose?

(copy-paste from above: "a performant variety, which makes beautiful fruits(bright/intense red), alot of them, starting early and ending very late, which aren`t squishy, and can be stored for longer." )(A greenhouse/polytunnel(maybe more appropriate) variety).

I`ll appreciate any thoughts from anyone.

[Doug9345]

I guess the question I have is what seed is available to you. I don't know if you can import seed easily into Romania or are basically have to use with what the local seed vendor has. I'm going to bring part of your first post down here so that people may see it.

Well, their goals is to choose a performant variety, witch makes beautiful fruits(bright/intense red), alot of them, starting early and ending very late, witch aren`t squishy, and can be stored for longer. This happens to be my goals too.

A lot of what you grow will depend on what you think you customers will buy. Have you figured this out yet. Part two of the question is why will they buy it from you instead of someone else. Will you be cheaper, better, or more convenient. Is there more demand than is being met and you can sell all you produce?

[va.0488]

Originally Posted by Doug9345

I guess the question I have is what seed is available to you. I don't know if you can import seed easily into Romania or are basically have to use with what the local seed vendor has.

Yep, I`m stuck with local seeds.
These are the most widely available:

alvaro f1
bss 714
tolstoi f1
tourist f1
cristal f1
tamaris f1
florenzia f1
lorely f1
cetia f1
kartier f1
leonora f1
byzance f1
kilio f1
aphen f1
jairo f1
avatar f1
tol 9326 f1
falcato f1
zfw 738 f1
matias f1
klass f1
naysika f1
noralee f1
Cindel F1
Fado F1
Halay 344 F1
Aegean F1
Belle F1
Buran F1
Elpida F1
Rally F1
Berberana F1
Arbason F1
Velocity F1
Mondial F1
Monroe F1
Vernal F1
Belfast F1
Benatar F1
Amaneta F1
corleone f1
H 11 F1
Cherokee F1
Noemy F1
Margarita F1
Brillante F1
Winona F1
Electra F1
Belladona F1
Primadona F1
Tracie F1
Francesca F1
Avangelina F1
Ismini F1
Marylu F1
Lissete F1
Kanpuku F1
Menhir F1
Axiom F1
Danubiana F1
Gaheris RZ F1
Petula RZ F1
Abellus RZ F1
Lilos RZ F1
Clarabella RZ F1
Cinto RZ F1
Barbados RZ F1
Amerigo F1
Caboto F1
Pink Rise F1
Fuji Pink F1
Meryva F1
Panormus F1
Linares F1
Manyla F1
Bigram F1
Byelsa F1
Venezia F1
Arletta F1
Kiveli F1
Sympathie F1
Marfa F1
Marissa F1
Enygma F1
Optima F1
Big Beef F1
Hilario F1
Bostina F1
Delfine F1
Izmir F1
Panekra F1
Fantastina F1
Comay F1
Gordo Tyl F1
Emir F1
Montfavet F1
Opera F1
Jadelo F1
Charanda F1
Amanda F1
Lady Rosa F1
Rosaliya F1
Mercedes F1 (Shirley F1)
Tolin F1
Kilates F1
Lugas F1
Sampei F1
Corfu F1
Alfred F1
.. and some more.

I could only find info (and not enough) for some .. .

Originally Posted by Doug9345

why will they buy it from you instead of someone else. Will you be cheaper, better, or more convenient. Is there more demand than is being met and you can sell all you produce?

Well, people buy tomatoes. That`s why I`ll sell. Sometimes there is not enough produce on the market, and sometimes is way too much; no one can predict this ... it`s a risk. That`s why carefull choosing of the variety is a must ... ; can`t go by the label description.

PS: As for seeding mix, I wasn`t sure what is accepted, and while searching, found this: https://attra.ncat.org/attra-pub/viewhtml.php?id=47 (alot of recipes at the end)
So .. I`ll mix what I can find ... and that`s that

[dice]

Of your whole list of tomato seed available, Big Beef F1 is
the only one I have heard of (mostly good things about
robustness of the plant and production). I do not really
care about "squishy" (juicy), because almost every tomato
I grow is like that, juicy with plenty of seeds.

From your first list, Super Marmande may do well outside
in the field. It is a fairly tough cultivar that stands up to bad
weather better than most for me. I do not have anything
close to your temperatures, though, and it is a juicy, oblate
slicer.

[carolyn137]

I don't usually read the Market Garden Forum, but someone told me that you'd mentioned my name here.

I read through quickly and while you have a list of varieties in one of your first posts, and I am famiiar with many of them, when asked what seeds are available to you, you gave a long list of F1 hybrids and only Big Beef, which I've not grown is famiiar to me.

So if you have the seeds for the varieties you first posted, which ones do you want to sell fruits from and which ones for plants and maybe the same varieties for both plants and fruits?

You asked the question if you'd asked too much in one thread and yes, I think you might have.

Carolyn

[va.0488]

Well .. after some google-ing, I`ll choose between:

Arbason F1
Belle F1
Aegean F1
Brillante F1

(I won`t do plant selling .. so only for produce).

I bought big beef seeds from tomatogrowers, so this one will be for sure; any ideas on the other ones?
(Arbason f1 seems very good(also much cheaper here, ~45$ for 500sds !), but one review from johnny seeds said that in high temperatures it develops white core ...; on the producer`s website, it says that is good for southern US... . What do you think? )

Edit: in that review , about white core, the man said there were no problems with K nutrient; it seems there are a few more causes for this ...; he stated he`s a profesional grower ... .

[carolyn137]

I bought big beef seeds from tomatogrowers, so this one will be for sure; any ideas on the other ones?

%%%%%

Do you mean the ones that are non-hybrids on your first list?

I can't help with the F1 hybrids you just listed above b'c I haven't grown any of them and to be honest most of them on your longer list of F1's are new names for me.

Carolyn