USDA's Seed "Vault(s)"??

[obispo45]

I'm not a plant breeder persay...have one f3 creation in the works, an as of yet un-named pepper. It shows promise, though I have no illusions whatsoever that it'll venture beyond my garden and the plots of a few local friends I give/share seedlings with. Just like most people who cannot get enough of their favorite hobby I always strive for improvement and embrace advice from any and all likeminded folks. If I ramble on aimlessly or answer my own questions with a question I apologize in advance...though I'll try to avoid it.

I receive probably 25 seed catalogs yearly, if not more from a variety of diverse vendors; in addition I'm a "small time" listed member of SSE. Same as many here I/we have access to a HUGE amount of germplasm.

Lately I've been checking out GRIN(Germplasm Resources Information Network) an online system, probably hardcopy too, created and maintained by the US Dep't Agriculture. Holy Guacamole Batman....there's a ton of s@$t in the various depositories which are scattered across the country. Here commences my ramblings, though in all honesty its 4:45AM here and I'm oncall for local EMS...hope we're not dispatched to your place, just kidding about my foginess!!

I'm obviously an amateur by all definitions...specifically those regarding plant biology,genetics, etc. I don't know agricultural people in "high places" eg colleges, universities. And to boot I'm essentially a gardening rookie. If my understanding is reasonably accurate it seems that the USDA via the GRIN network will provide seeds(of a huge number of botanical types) to those engaged in research or within the broad scope of the scientific community if possible. Contacted a few non-governmental and educational institutions and the info forthcoming was about as fast as Lt. Dan at Forrest Gump's wedding...if ya know what I'm getting at.

Has anyone requested material from them?? Does a novice such as myself stand a snowballs' chance in Tucson in receiving seeds from them? My particular interest relates to peppers. They just have material that the aforementioned catalogs and SSE members do not seem to have. Not expecting miracles, not trying to be different, just want to try a new avenue. Want to trial some rarer peppers, share my results, possibly breed compatible types. Overnight success takes on average, what.......23 years??

[garnetmoth]

There is a guy I knew on Myspace who had gotten some rare things from USDA. sadly, he was a skeezy jerk and was selling them on EBAY. (teosinte seeds)

so, i know average home breeders can get them, but im not sure how much shennanigans he was about.....?

good luck with your project!

[LoreD]

The USDA/GRIN no longer sends seeds to individuals. After an incident with Zman it is very difficult to obtain seed. Usually researchers, professional breeders, and growers are the only ones who can obtains seeds at this time.

The guidelines on who can obtain seed are now very strict.

LoreD

[carolyn137]

Lore is absolutely correct in that germplasm from the USDA is no longer available to individuals such as we.

Craig and I got a huige anount of material out of the USDA many years ago when it was posssible to do so and listed everything in the SSE Yearbook so that others would have access to it.

And it's entirely possible that what you're looking for may appear in a future Yearbook, or indeed is online somewhere at a pepper related site, of which there are several.

The USDA system was so abused that several years ago restrictions were put into place. Some folks slipped thru that and Z-man was one of them, unfortunately, and in addition he posted at several website encouraging folks to apply for seeds, b'c an application is required.

At that time I contacted the USDA station where he had requested seeds from as well as one other USDA station and asked them to clarify their policy, and they did, in an E-mail that the head of the Ames station sent me. I had asked that she write one that I could post, and did so.

Have you Googled the various pepper varieties that you're seeking? If it were me I think I'd start there b'c you seem to be indicating that what you want is so rare such that the probability of youre posting here or elsewhere in the varieties wanted section, or at Tville in the Forum for peppers, might not yield results. But if it were me I think I'd also post here at Tville where folks are posting about peppers b'c I know two folks who do have extensive pepper collections who do post here and if they don't have what you want they might be able to better direct you.

Hope that helps.

And I will say that I do agree with the current restrictions on obtaining USDA germplasm for many reasons.

[feldon30]

I don't think we can underestimate what Carolyn and Craig accomplished over 10 years ago by pulling out huge numbers of varieties out of the USDA and growing them out and comparing them to seed catalog descriptions and people's memories to see if they were the real thing or crosses.

It is hard for me to believe that a variety like Burpee's Matchless, which was their flagship tomato for many years, does not exist in pure form, although Carolyn does document an "Austin strain" which seems "close" to seed catalog descriptions.

A lot of what's in the USDA was crossed but there were also some gems. And as Carolyn has told us, over 90% of the tomato varieties in the USDA are breeding parents and partners for commercial varieties and not particularly desirable as to flavor.

I think it is interesting that in the tomato world, when someone wants great flavor and exotic varieties, they reach for O.P.s (some of which are heirlooms ). But some of the biggest pepper fans grow mostly hybrids, especially for sweet peppers. That just seems to be where some of the best varieties lie. I am not saying that someone cannot be totally satisfied by O.P. pepper cultivars, but the popularity of Sun Gold tells me "grow what you like."

[tomatoaddict]

I'm glad I read this thread as I had alot of the same questions. I too am a garden rookie but am always interested in obtaining hard to find seeds.
It's a shame that the USDA system had to be abused and ruined for everyone.

[nctomatoman]

Feldon, Matchless does exist in the original form - when I grew out the USDA sample, I got an indeterminate plant with medium fruit that match the description well - pic is here (fruit, plant, cut fruit). And, the Austin strain is actually like Burpee's Quarter Century (probably their selection of Dwarf Stone, as Matchless is similar to Livingston's Stone).

What triggered the activity was my start of collecting old seed catalogs, and joining the SSE. One of the first catalogs I found was a 1900 Livingston - and the "cover tomato" was Magnus. When I didn't find it in the SSE, I started sniffing around - and was delighted to find many old CVs no longer in circulation sitting ignored and unloved in the GRIN database! That led to requesting several hundred types of named CVs - some of which I've yet to grow out. I will post a complete list at some point.

[Granny]

Carolyn, I am rather amazed that YOU of all people do not qualify as a "bonafide plant researcher." Given your credentials and publication, I suspect that if you want something from GRIN you can have it for the asking.

[nctomatoman]

Let's try again - here are those that I got out - about 160 accessions.

Beauty of Loraine - old French CV, medium oblate red, a bit hollow, ordinary flavor
Alpha - pre-1900, potato leaf red, ordinary
Banana Leaf - kind of a potato leaf type, smallish red fruit, so so quality
Essex Wonder - got as a curiosity, an ordinary smallish red
Green Gage - old UK variety, small round bright yellow, nice
Early Ruby - old US CV, medium to small red, undistinguished
Redfield Beauty - selection of Livingston's Beauty, early 1900's, medium pink, nice
Buckbee's Beefsteak - early 1900's, very large oblate red, Buckbee seed co, nice
Alice Roosevelt - listed in old US seed catalog, medium good flavored red
Triumph - old CV, medium oblate red, ho hum flavor
King Humbert - old Italian plum type tomato- small Roma shape, indeterminate, dry flesh
Landreth - medium red, old Landreth CV, similar to Stone, a good one
Livingston Oxheart - 1925 Livingston, the first heart shaped variety, large pink
Royal Purple - good medium pink tomato, similar to Beauty
Livingston Main Crop Pink - Livingston, 1930's, medium oblate pink, good
Queen Mary - got as a curiosity, small round red, undistinguished
King George - got as a curiosity, small round red, undistinguished
Goldene Konigen - got as a mistake, not grown, listed in the SSE
Lutescent - fits description of Livingston's Honor Bright, odd pale yellowish foliage, fruit ripens green to white to orange to red, white flowers, a mutation found in Stone.
Excelsior - old CV, medium ordinary red.
Optimus - nice old Ferry Morse variety, early 1900's, medium red fruit
White Flowered Marglobe - got as a curiosity, flowers not white, fruit medium and red.
White Flowered Marge - got as a curiosity, flowers not white, fruit medium and red.
White Queen - 1930's Earl May, medium oblate ivory, pink blush, a good flavored white
Livingston's Golden Queen - 1882, the first named commercial yellow, medium bright yellow with a pink blush, good flavor
Henderson's Winsall - 1920s, an improvement on Ponderosa - large pink, good flavor
Geswein's Purple Bonny Best - another good medium sized pink, similar to Beauty
Livingston Magnus - 1900 Livingston, potato leaf, medium round pink, good flavor
Livingston Favorite - 1890s Livingston, fine variety, medium smooth red fruit, good flavor
Winsall - see above
Dwarf Stone - Livingston 1905, largest fruited red Dwarf variety, fairly good flavor
Paragon - first Livingston variety, 1870, medium red
Acme, DeGiorgi Brothers (was crossed - came out red fruited, should have been pink)
Dixie Golden Giant - large golden yellow (nearly orange) fruit, similar to Goldie
Queen of the Purples (was crossed - came out red fruited)
Early Large Red - very old, oblate irregular red, OK flavor
Alpha Pink - Isbell pre 1915 variety, small to medium pink, early, good flavor, probably similar to Acme
Alpha Pink - ditto
Abraham Lincoln - 1923 Buckbee variety, described as bronze foliaged, but was not - large red fruit, indeterminate, very different from what is offered as Abe Lincoln today.
Trophy - famous old tomato, pre 1870s, large to medium flat red, more than likely not quite what it originally looked like.
Mikado Scarlet - regular leaf, large oblate red, got as a curiosity, good flavor
Livingston's Beauty - 1880s Livingston, very nice medium pink fruit
Mikado - old Henderson variety, large pink potato leaf, but samples from USDA mixed up - includes RL and PL pink and red fruit (all 4 combinations seen)
Mikado - ditto
Micado Ecarlate - got as a curiosity, ended up being a large oblate red regular leaf, good flavor
Livingston's Beauty - famous 1880s Livingston variety, smooth medium pink
Urbana Forcing - got this one by mistake - an old US CV, didn't grow yet
Abel - old Canada CV, smallish early red fruit, ho hum
Dwarf Recessive - the only potato leaf dwarf I know, medium ordinary pink fruit, we are using it to breed better PL dwarfs
Imperial - either crossed or a synonym for what I expected - hoped for the old Maule pink, this turned out to be an ordinary red.
Nectarine - very odd - medium oblate matte finish pinkish fruit, plant has slightly pale green foliage, an oddity
Yellow Tomato - turned out to be a smallish yellow tomato of no great distinction, got as a curiosity
Victorian Dwarf #1 - not a dwarf but a determinate - not very flavorful, red smallish fruit, got as a curiosity
Curl (Stick) (sample was mixed - some with the odd foliage, some ordinary medium indeterminate red) - the weird and wonderful Gleckler variety that looks like a poodle!
Trimson - similar to High Crimson, supposedly very red flesh, ordinary for me
Earliest of All - 1890s Maule variety, smallish irregular red fruit
Enormous - 1890s Maule variety, not really enormous but a medium red.
Buckbee's New Fifty Day - nice early variety, old Buckbee variety, medium smooth red. Tasty.
Matchless - 1880s Burpee variety, similar to Stone, medium red.
Golden Beauty - very nice, similar to Golden Queen, bright yellow with pink blush, tasty
Giant Beauty - got as a curiosity, determinate medium red, borning
Yellow Ponderosa - very nice, old US CV, large oblate bright yellow fruit, good flavor
Orange Tree - bizarre, dwarf plant with unhealthy looking twisty foliage, small round orange fruit, got as a curiosity, may be good for using as breeding material.
Santa Clara Canner - the original California canning tomato, from Italy, large irregular red, I've not grown
Ham Green Favorite - old US CV, medium red fruit, undistinguished, got as a curiosity
Early Giant - old US CV, determinate, medium round red fruit, ho hum
Golden Monarch - old Buist variety, really good, medium yellow with pink blush, likely a selection of Golden Queen
The Orange - old 1930's Henderson variety, very large oblate pale orange fruit, good variety
Jagged Leaf - unusual potato leaf, slightly different, large oblate red fruit, pretty good, got as a curiosity
Vivid - got as a curiosity, small round pink fruit, so so
Cream City - Currie seed company, early 1900s, medium pink fruit, pretty good
Maule's Success - early 1900s, medium red, good variety, similar to Stone and Matchless
Gold Ball, Livingston's - 1890s Livingston, small round yellow, good flavor
Giant Tree (crossed - is a regular indeterminate type - should have been like New Big Dwarf)
Potato Leaf Type - got as a curiosity, similar to Brandywine in color and leaf shape, pretty good
New Big Dwarf - Isbell pre 1915, from a cross bet. Ponderosa and Dwarf Champion, large pink fruit on a dwarf plant, great variety
Giant Italian Potato Leaf - been in the SSE for years, similar to Brandywine type (large pink fruit, PL) - I've not grown.
Orange King - similar to Orange Chatham, also from New Hamp. breeding, determinate, medium early orange.
Diener - old California canning variety, large irregular red fruit, selected from Santa Clara Canner
High Crimson - old Canadian CV, high crimson gene, didn't distinguish itself for me.
Royal Wonder - another US CV, determinate, medium round red fruit, pretty good
Bountiful - old US CV, good variety, medium round red fruit
Golden Glory - got as a curiosity, small round yellow, kind of hollow, pretty bad
Peak of Perfection - I really like this one - 1920's Salzer variety- probably a selection of Ferris Wheel, large pink fruit, good flavor, disease prone
Heterosis - couldn't resist the name, an awful tomato! medium red, hollow inside, yuck
Tops All - old US CV, pretty good, medium red, determinate.
Albino (was crossed - just an ordinarly red) - got as a curiosity
Orange Chatham - developed in NH for early season, small orange Determinate, fair flavor
Perfection - see below
Perfection - see below
Peach Blow Sutton - old Sutton UK variety, their version of a Peach tomato, fuzzy, small to medium, pink fruit, pretty good flavor
Chartreuse Mutant - was crossed - just a typical medium red tomato - got as a curiosity
Yellow Beauty - got as a curiosity, medium bright yellow fruit, pretty but bland
Dwarf Perfection (was crossed - not a dwarf, just an ordinary indeterminate red)
Perfection - 1890s Livingston variety, medium red fruit, didn't distinguish itself for me.
June Pink - early 1900s CV, considered a pink version of Earliana, I've not grown.
Self-Pruning - not sure about this - got as a curiosity, could be either a Determinate or a Dwarf, I've not grown.
Early Detroit - early 1900s CV, medium pink fruit, I've not grown.
Gulf State Market - early 1900's CV, medium pink fruit, I've not grown.
Marvelosa - from a cross between Ponderosa and Marvel, smooth pink fruit, good variety
Leopold Hougardy - got as a mistake! Never grown it out
Trucker's Favorite - old Maule variety similar to Acme, medium pink fruit, pretty good
IXL - Old Bolgiano variety, small to medium red fruit, grown by PNWD - I have fresh seed
Fordhook First - 1890s Burpee release, medium smooth pink fruit, probably similar to Acme. Pretty good.
Giant Oxheart - synonym for the 1925 Livingston release - large pink fruit. Shared with CdnTomato and have fresh seed.
Dwarf Giant - similar to New Big Dwarf (from a cross between Ponderosa and Dwarf Champion) - short plant, medium to large pink fruit. I've not grown.
Livingston's Marvelous - they didn't develop it - considered a pink version of Marglobe (out of the same breeding program)
Conqueror - very old, 1880s, red fruit, very irregular and "old fashioned" looking, lobed.
Ohio Red (one of the missing Livingstons - Mike germinated some, doesn't grow true to description, mixed) - described as an elongated red, which would have been quite unusual.
Ideal (one of the missing old Livingstons - trouble germinating it) - released as a medium red.
Matchum - from a cross between Matchless and Hummer, medium red fruit.
Red Head - old US CV, I've not grown.
Redrock - old US CV, I've not grown.
Schells Number 10 - old Schell variety, medium red fruit, I've not grown.
Ferris Wheel - great variety! 1894 Salzer variety, likely a selection of Ponderosa, large delicious pink.
Marvelous Pink Globe - from the same cross that produced Marglobe, very nice, medium smooth pink.
Penn State - old USDA CV, medium red, similar to Stone, I've not grown.
Burpee's Globe - 1933 Burpee variety, really nice, medium large very round pink, delicious
Faribo Golden Heart - old Farmer Seed company variety, I've not grown it.
Golden Ponderosa - old Henderson variety, large deep yellow fruit - I've not tried.
Burpee's Sunnybrook Earliana - Burpee selection of Earliana, early medium red, I've not grown it.
Earliana - early 1900s CV, medium red, I've not tried it.
Mingold - old US CV, shared with several GW members, got fresh seed from each.
Beefheart - got as a curiosity, I've not grown it.
Landreth Globe - probably their selection of Livingston's Globe - I've tried it, medium smooth pink.
Golden Sunrise - old British CV, I've not grown it yet.
Marche d Malines Hative (Belgian variety) - got as a curiosity, I've not grown it.
Morse's Special Early - old US CV, I've not grown it.
Potager de Vilvorde (Belgian variety) - got as a curiosity, I've not grown, shared with a GW member who sent me fresh seed.
Barr's Scarlet Beauty - old US CV, I've not grown it.
Isbell's Golden Colossal - old (pre 1910) Isbell variety, I got one seed to germinate, very nice bright yellow large fruit, Mike D at Victory now sells it.
Monarch - old Buist variety, selection of Ponderosa probably, very nice, large pink fruit, sent to Mike D at Victory, he sells it.
Golden Bison - old US CV - for northern climates, I've not grown it, Mike D has, offers it.
Gloire de Malines (Belgian variety) - got as a curiosity, I've not grown it.
Marche Jaune Gele Mkt (Belgian variety) - got as a curiosity - I've not grown it.
Condon's Peerless - old Condon variety, medium smooth red, sent to Robbins, she grew it and sent me fresh seed.
American Beauty - old US CV - medium pink fruit, similar to Beauty - I've grown it, pretty good.
Scarlet Champion - I've not grown it - got as a curiosity.
Primrose Gage - probably similar to Green Gage, I've not grown it. Got as a curiosity.
Burgess Lemon - I've not grown it, but CdnTomato did and sent me fresh seed.
Burpee's Gloriana - old Burpee variety, a selection of Earliana, medium red. I've not grown it.
Burpee's Table Talk - old Burpee variety, medium round red, I've not grown but Mike D at Victory did and offers it.
Improved Colossal Crimson - sample mixed or crossed - I got a large red cherry. supposed to be a large pink, like Ponderosa.
Improved Colossal Golden (sample mixed - I grew out a red one, a friend got the authentic gold one)
Improved Colossal Red - old Burgess variety, I've grown it, very large irregular flat red, delicious
Improved Colossal Yellow - old Burgess variety, I've grown it, nice large bright yellow, good flavor
McMullen Rose - old Stokes variety - medium pink, potato leaf pink.
Chalk's Early Jewel - early 1900's variety - medium red fruit. I've not grown it out.
John Baer - early 1900's CV - medium red fruit. I've not grown it out.
Burgess Early Wonder - old Burgess variety - I've not grown it out.
Burgess Mammoth Wonder - old Burgess variety - I've not grown it, but a GW friend did and sent me fresh seed.
Sutton's Best of All - old British variety - I've not grown it out yet
Bearwell Selection - I've not grown it out yet. Got as a curiosity.
Polish Dwarf - I've not grown it out, but a GW friend did and I have fresh seed. Got as a curiosity
Hemg nu Hsing (Red Oxheart) - I've not grown it out yet. Got as a curiosity
Rosey Morn (one of the missing Livingstons - sent to Mike D at Victory, he now sells it) - nice medium pink
Livingston Stone 3049 - Livingston variety from 1890s - Lee really likes it! medium sized red.
Dobbies Melville Castle - old Scottish variety, I've not grown it out yet
Sakatas Giant - I haven't grown it out yet. Got as a curiosity
Earliest Dobbie - old Scottish variety, I've not tried it but Cdntomato did and sent me fresh seed.
Dobbies Champion - old Scottish variety, I've not grown it out yet
African Beefsteak - I haven't grown it out, but a GardenWeb friend did and sent me fresh seed. Been listed in the SSE for years (large pink beefsteak type)

Duplicate listings indicate more than one accession (or, that name had multiple numbers).

[Granny]

Only thing wrong with the list you posted was the formatting was off. All showed up in the email though.

[carolyn137]

AS Craig has pointed out, what I had in my book as Matchless ( Austin) was really Quarter Century. I received that Austin directly from Dave Austin as Matchless and Glenn at Sandhill was also listing it as Matchless, although he fixed that when I told him what was up.

Craig was finally able to get the real Matchless out and it's a small to med round red with regular, not rugose foliage as is Quarter Century, and I didn't find it to be especially memorable except for history purposes.

it turns out that there were several USDA accessions listed as Matchless and some of them were not pure.

I don't know if Craig is just listing what he got out of the USDA or what I got out separately. I never did make a list, just grew them and if they met the original descriptions listed them in the SSE Yearbook for others who might be interested.

Granny, I have a Ph. D in Microbiology and spent most of my career teaching med students. So no degrees in plant breeding or similar, and while I've dehybridized varieties I've never bred tomatoes myself. So no, I wouldn't qualify in terms of the documentation they require.

But as Craig has said many times, and I agree, as to tomatoes, I think all, if not all, of the good stuff is already out of the USDA and available to the public.

One of the abuses of the USDA system was many folks requesting varieties that WERE already out and they never made an attempt to find that out. IN addition, the actual growouts have been and are being done at the USDA Geneva, NY station and last I knew the isolation distanace was zero. You heard me, zero. There simply isn't enough money to hire folks to do things the way they should be done.

When Craig and I were getting our stuff out the then Director there was great. he was very concerned about the viability of the system many years ago. he asked both Craig and I and Kent Whealey and breeders and seed physiologists if we'd serve on a committee to review the accessions since so many were really useless, being old breeding stock no longer needed. That would have cut down considerably on the number of growouts that were done for restocking seed.

But he couldn't even get enough money to set up a meeting of everyone so that went kaput as well. He left the Geneva station and I knew where he went, but forgot. I know he left Govt employment, that much I do remember.

[Tom Wagner]

Among the members of this forum (Tomatoville.com), I am probably the most ardent collector of germ plasm from various seed banks (GRIN) etc.

Always, up front, I have stressed the reason for any requests have been for breeding purposes. So often have I requested material that I am sometimes alerted to the first availability of unique germplasm. Many times, I get my requests in so fast that I get the first priorities. This is especially true of potato germplasm. With the growing necessity of Material Transfer Agreements (MTA) the process of requests is slowed down immensely. The PVP laws make many newer materials essentially off-limits.

I have several MTA's sitting on my desk ready to send off, and many more I need to print off and fill out. Now days you even need to get MTA's for tomato pollen to be sent by mail. This approach limits one to using the germplasm in hybrid production, thus never having the OP in question.

After five decades of accessing the germplasm banks, I feel my own germplasm bank is worth something. I am a voracious seed saver and breeder by anyone who knows me.

So much of my "stuff" has controlled germplasm in the pedigree that I have been advised by associates to apply for PVP simply to protect myself and other breeder's germplasm base. This doesn't gain me many friends here likely, but the sad fact remains that new releases are nearly worthless without some form of patent application. Since I have virtually no money to protect myself, this vast array of germplasm languishes.

Just about every accession I request is used in an attempted cross. In fact, if a cross has been made, it is likely that I have that seed in inventory. If no cross was made, I may not even have viable seed of the original request either.

Seeds are like family histories in a way. There are "Seeds" from the old country, but like most families they "marry" out. The original seed is crossed with local populations, and those new populations of seed "marry" into other old families and/or new immigrants. Seeds can be static, or they can be dynamic. The journey I put seeds through is much like human metaphoricals. Life is knowing where we started, and that there is some unknown destination, but it is the journey that we are so exquisitely involved in.

Tom Wagner

[Granny]

Yes, I did know about your degree in Micro Carolyn. One of my daughters had a copy of your book delivered to me a few weeks ago as a little surprise.

I didn't see anything at GRIN that specified that they actually wanted documentation - just a little blurb that they do not "ordinarily" provide germplasm to home gardeners and have had immense success getting stuff because I am a homeschool teacher Not being a botanist myself, I would not have a clue what to do with the stuff if I had it.

[obispo45]

WOW!! Didn't mean to bite off more than I can chew. Talk about information overload. Suppose I can equate my interest w/ the GRID "stuff" with that of the infamous crook Willie Horton. When Willie was asked why he chose to rob banks instead of other places his answer was simple..."cuz thats where all the money is". Dumb analogy but sometimes I guess its easier to start at the top(for me anyway) so to speak.

The shear volume and incredibly high quality of info y'all have given me is so greatly appreciated. Like I stated previously I'm a rookie and in any given endeavor there has to be a learning curve to some degree, hopefully a continous one. Right now I feel like a child on the first day of Kindergarten, all sorts of those wonderous mixed emotions. Obviously I cannot be too disappointed since the common gardening man like myself still has access to lots of uncommon and/or unique "stuff". Playing on that theme we have so many uncommon folks and minds here, such a wonderful resource.

Thanks again everyone!! I'll undoubtedly have more to say, but of greater importance more to ask. Cheers

[nctomatoman]

Please also note that I will be editing that list I posted earlier with a bit more info when I get a chance - which I've grown out, which I haven't, which that I've sent to others to grow out, my favorites, which are definitely older CVs, vs those that just sounded interesting!