struggling seedlings whats wrong?

pecker88 · August 5, 2015

Hey guys, I'm a newb and in need of some help on my indoor winter seedlings.

On July 11th I started Totem, Red Robin, New Big Dwarf, Habanero, Jalapeno seeds germinating in baggies, got seeds from Tomato Growers Supply; 100% germination rate.

About 3 days later I placed all the tomatoes in double stack Solo cups (holes in bottom of inner cup). I used a seed starting mix from local hydro shop. I added perlite; 3 parts seed starting mix, 1 part perlite and placed under T5 florescent light.

Here's the seed starting mix; I added extra perlite.

They grew great for the next 2 weeks. I watered about every 4 days, when the cups felt light and I could see the soil breaking away from the edge of the cup.

At the 2.5 week mark the seedlings had 2 sets of true leaves and the lower ones were starting to look a little yellow, so I decided to fertilize with 1/4 strength hydroponic solution. I used masterblend 12g, cal nitrate 6g, mag sulfate 6g.

At this time I also noticed quite a few roots coming out of the inner cup holes in the bottom. They were soaking in the outer cup overflow water. I dont' think this is good.

I have also moved them to a 400w 75% power MH light.

Temps stay around 75 during the day, 72 at night. Humidity is almost constant at 38%. I have an oscelating fan about 5 ft away on low speed blowing on the group of seedlings.

Here are the pics, the only seedlings that look OK are Redrobin. All the rest have droopy and/or yellow leaves. Growth has almost stopped in the last 1.5 weeks.

Should I just start over?

I'm thinking this time, I would scrap the seed starting mix and use 1 part fox farm Ocean Forest, 1 part perlite, 2 parts promix (no fert in this promix blend). Then I wouldnt' have to worry about ferts due to the 1 part Ocean Forest.

totem, upper leaves droopy, lower leaves upward curl and dead

Totem, same thing, different plant

New Big Dwarf

Red Robin, relatively healthy looking

Group Shot

AlittleSalt · August 5, 2015

Yellowing leaves often mean over watering, but watering ever forth day sounds right to me. Are you watering from the top or bottom? I drill holes in the bottom of the solo cups I use and water from the bottom.

pecker88 · August 6, 2015

I water from top. A good soaking every 4 days or so.

zipcode · August 6, 2015

Knowing how much fertilizer to give seedlings is difficult. Osmocote for seedlings or other slow release is not a bad idea (add them when doing the mix). In my experience pH and proper feeding (not too much or too little) are the biggest problems I had with seedlings.

ginger2778 · August 6, 2015

I have seen my young seedlings turn yellow right after giving them a dose of the blue fertilizer, even though it was weak. That happened 2 years in a row. It was cured almost right away with a weak epsom salt solution, both years. Mix 1 Tablespoon into a gallon of water, I promise they will green up right away,like in a day or 2.

I no longer give my seelings the blue stuff, even weak, because it seems to induce a magnesium deficiency. Salt ( Robert) is correct, usually those starting yellow leaves were from overwatering, always feel the soil down to the first knuckle, dont just look for dry and pulling away on the surface.

I like zipcodes Osmocote idea, might try that this season.

pecker88 · August 6, 2015

I'll mix up a weak mag. sulfate (same as epsom salt) solution and water them a little tonight. But, mag. sulfate was already in my hydroponic 1/4 strength solution that I gave them, so not sure that is the issue??

I started a small batch of new Red Robin, New Big Dwarf and Totem seeds in rockwool cubes last night, mostly for experiment purposes. After they pop out, I'll put the rockwool cube in a Solo cup mix of 1/3 perlite, 1/3 ProMix, 1/3 Fox Farm Ocean Forest.

I'm thinking the 1/3 ocean forest soil (a hot soil mix) will be just right to carry the seedlings through a month or so until transplant, without having to worry about burning the roots with liquid ferts.

Another experiment could be rockwool seedling cubes in a 3/4 ProMix, 1/4 perlite mix with a pinch of tomato tone. Again, I think this would be enough to carry them through a month to transplant. Maybe I'll try that also, but I'm short on time, expecting a family addition any day/hour now!!

RayR · August 6, 2015

That organic seed starting mix looks hot enough to feed those seedlings for a while yet. Always resist the temptation to overfeed especially with synthetics. Nutrient cycling in that mix (and the same with Ocean Forest) is dependent on the bacteria in the mix and good mycorrhizal colonization requires that Phosphorous inputs not be to high. Too much salts in general can be harmful to those microorganisms. If anything I would use a mild dose of a liquid organic fertilizer to stimulate the microorganisms.
The yellowing could be a watering issue as said or if not a nutrient imbalance like Magnesium is possible
I see no reason to toss the plants and start over. The T5's (6400K) should be more than sufficient for this vegetative phase so I don't see light source as a cause of any problems.

pecker88 · August 6, 2015

I'll let these seedlings limp along, but for sure I'm done with the ferts for now.

General consensus
Seems like the seed starting mix I used already had plenty of nuts. and that my 1/4 strength hydroponic solution likely burned the plants.
~~and~~
too much water

I'm also going to play with my new rockwool cubes I started last night and see if this time I can eliminate the slow growth, droopiness, yellowing leaves by changing up a few things; soil being the first. I'm also going to bottom water my new batch 1 time per week.

Nematode · August 7, 2015

They look overfed to me, but not fatally so. The dark green downward curved leaves are a clue, it is called "bullish".
If the masterblend + calnit + epsom is a complete hydroponic solution, if it was me I would use an inert soilless starter of some kind, and use a 1/4 strength hydro solution after first true leaves emerge. Increase strength as they grow. I used to have a terrible time with seedlings until I found oasis horticubes they work the best for me. Near 100% germination, no damping off, no fuss, no drama.

Had a tough go with rock wool this spring, the brand I used needed a weak acid soak to remove the lime flux used in the mfg process, I sorta skipped that step and high ph completely locked out nutrients, almost killed them. Thay are doing fine now, and I think I will use them again.
To be clear I germinate in oasis and transplant into rock wool, these blocks are placed on perlite or coir for grow out hydroponically. Hope thats not TMI!
Good luck!

pecker88 · August 10, 2015

Seedlings still looking bad; droopy leaves, New Big Dwarf have lime-green vegetation. Habanero and Jalapeno pepper seem to be fine, and the Hab. is even growing. Image that, seedlings growing!

I took the worst seedling and re-potted to 1/3 ProMix Ultimate, 1/3 perlite, 1/3 fox farm ocean forest, and it might be straightening out; we'll see.

Anyway, I started brainstorming trying to think back about what I changed when the seedlings took a turn for the worse.
-fertilized with 1/4 strength hydro. solution
-moved to 400w MH light
-changed to dehumidifier water from RO

Our well water is full of iron and sulfur so our house water goes through a system that uses hydrogen peroxide to remove iron and sulfur. From there it goes to softener or RO system.

I put a Tee in the RO line in my basement grow area so I have a great supply of water, but I was using a lot and causing the system to have low pressure in the house; wife wasn't happy with a p*ssing RO faucet in kitchen so I switched to the dehumidifier water.

I just tested the dehumidifier water pH and take a look, 4.0 !!! Could this be at least be some of the cause of my seedlings looking like crap? Maybe peppers don't mind low pH water??

thanks.

Gerardo · August 10, 2015

It seems you have everything else covered: light, nutes (the 1/4 strength should have been just fine), growing media (that mix has everything), TLC. So I'm gonna put my money on the pH 4.0 water.

Nematode · August 10, 2015

4 is pretty low if it was me I would correct to 5.5-6.0.
You are not straight hydro, the pro-mix usually has sone lime which will buffer the low ph water for a little while.

pecker88 · August 10, 2015

Added some baking soda and brought it up to 6.0 - 6.5.
I watered the lightest weight cups that havent' got any water for 5 days.

I also switched to bottom watering since I covered the top with GnatNix. That's really nice stuff BTW, 100% eliminated the pesky little gnats.

RayR · August 10, 2015

I'm sure your dehumidifier water doesn't have enough ions in. It's basically distilled water, your meter is going to freak out and give some crazy readings.

pecker88 · August 10, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by RayR

I'm sure your dehumidifier water doesn't have enough ions in. It's basically distilled water, your meter is going to freak out and give some crazy readings.

I used dye drops, no electronic pH meter. After 3 drops per the instructions, it immediately turned red, indicating low pH. RO water is about 6.5.

August 5, 2015	#1
pecker88 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 192	struggling seedlings whats wrong? Hey guys, I'm a newb and in need of some help on my indoor winter seedlings. On July 11th I started Totem, Red Robin, New Big Dwarf, Habanero, Jalapeno seeds germinating in baggies, got seeds from Tomato Growers Supply; 100% germination rate. About 3 days later I placed all the tomatoes in double stack Solo cups (holes in bottom of inner cup). I used a seed starting mix from local hydro shop. I added perlite; 3 parts seed starting mix, 1 part perlite and placed under T5 florescent light. Here's the seed starting mix; I added extra perlite. They grew great for the next 2 weeks. I watered about every 4 days, when the cups felt light and I could see the soil breaking away from the edge of the cup. At the 2.5 week mark the seedlings had 2 sets of true leaves and the lower ones were starting to look a little yellow, so I decided to fertilize with 1/4 strength hydroponic solution. I used masterblend 12g, cal nitrate 6g, mag sulfate 6g. At this time I also noticed quite a few roots coming out of the inner cup holes in the bottom. They were soaking in the outer cup overflow water. I dont' think this is good. I have also moved them to a 400w 75% power MH light. Temps stay around 75 during the day, 72 at night. Humidity is almost constant at 38%. I have an oscelating fan about 5 ft away on low speed blowing on the group of seedlings. Here are the pics, the only seedlings that look OK are Redrobin. All the rest have droopy and/or yellow leaves. Growth has almost stopped in the last 1.5 weeks. Should I just start over? I'm thinking this time, I would scrap the seed starting mix and use 1 part fox farm Ocean Forest, 1 part perlite, 2 parts promix (no fert in this promix blend). Then I wouldnt' have to worry about ferts due to the 1 part Ocean Forest. totem, upper leaves droopy, lower leaves upward curl and dead Totem, same thing, different plant New Big Dwarf Red Robin, relatively healthy looking Group Shot Last edited by pecker88; August 5, 2015 at 11:37 PM.

August 10, 2015	#10
pecker88 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 192	low pH water Seedlings still looking bad; droopy leaves, New Big Dwarf have lime-green vegetation. Habanero and Jalapeno pepper seem to be fine, and the Hab. is even growing. Image that, seedlings growing! I took the worst seedling and re-potted to 1/3 ProMix Ultimate, 1/3 perlite, 1/3 fox farm ocean forest, and it might be straightening out; we'll see. Anyway, I started brainstorming trying to think back about what I changed when the seedlings took a turn for the worse. -fertilized with 1/4 strength hydro. solution -moved to 400w MH light -changed to dehumidifier water from RO Our well water is full of iron and sulfur so our house water goes through a system that uses hydrogen peroxide to remove iron and sulfur. From there it goes to softener or RO system. I put a Tee in the RO line in my basement grow area so I have a great supply of water, but I was using a lot and causing the system to have low pressure in the house; wife wasn't happy with a p*ssing RO faucet in kitchen so I switched to the dehumidifier water. I just tested the dehumidifier water pH and take a look, 4.0 !!! Could this be at least be some of the cause of my seedlings looking like crap? Maybe peppers don't mind low pH water?? thanks.

August 10, 2015	#12
Nematode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: massachusetts Posts: 1,710	4 is pretty low if it was me I would correct to 5.5-6.0. You are not straight hydro, the pro-mix usually has sone lime which will buffer the low ph water for a little while. Last edited by Nematode; August 10, 2015 at 09:39 PM. Reason: Sp

August 5, 2015	#2
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	Yellowing leaves often mean over watering, but watering ever forth day sounds right to me. Are you watering from the top or bottom? I drill holes in the bottom of the solo cups I use and water from the bottom.

August 6, 2015	#3
pecker88 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Lincoln, NE Posts: 192	I water from top. A good soaking every 4 days or so.

August 6, 2015	#4
zipcode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Romania/Germany , z 4-6 Posts: 1,582	Knowing how much fertilizer to give seedlings is difficult. Osmocote for seedlings or other slow release is not a bad idea (add them when doing the mix). In my experience pH and proper feeding (not too much or too little) are the biggest problems I had with seedlings.

August 6, 2015	#5
ginger2778 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Plantation, Florida zone 10 Posts: 9,283	I have seen my young seedlings turn yellow right after giving them a dose of the blue fertilizer, even though it was weak. That happened 2 years in a row. It was cured almost right away with a weak epsom salt solution, both years. Mix 1 Tablespoon into a gallon of water, I promise they will green up right away,like in a day or 2. I no longer give my seelings the blue stuff, even weak, because it seems to induce a magnesium deficiency. Salt ( Robert) is correct, usually those starting yellow leaves were from overwatering, always feel the soil down to the first knuckle, dont just look for dry and pulling away on the surface. I like zipcodes Osmocote idea, might try that this season.

August 6, 2015	#7
RayR Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Cheektowaga, NY Posts: 2,466	That organic seed starting mix looks hot enough to feed those seedlings for a while yet. Always resist the temptation to overfeed especially with synthetics. Nutrient cycling in that mix (and the same with Ocean Forest) is dependent on the bacteria in the mix and good mycorrhizal colonization requires that Phosphorous inputs not be to high. Too much salts in general can be harmful to those microorganisms. If anything I would use a mild dose of a liquid organic fertilizer to stimulate the microorganisms. The yellowing could be a watering issue as said or if not a nutrient imbalance like Magnesium is possible I see no reason to toss the plants and start over. The T5's (6400K) should be more than sufficient for this vegetative phase so I don't see light source as a cause of any problems.

August 7, 2015	#9
Nematode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: massachusetts Posts: 1,710	They look overfed to me, but not fatally so. The dark green downward curved leaves are a clue, it is called "bullish". If the masterblend + calnit + epsom is a complete hydroponic solution, if it was me I would use an inert soilless starter of some kind, and use a 1/4 strength hydro solution after first true leaves emerge. Increase strength as they grow. I used to have a terrible time with seedlings until I found oasis horticubes they work the best for me. Near 100% germination, no damping off, no fuss, no drama. Had a tough go with rock wool this spring, the brand I used needed a weak acid soak to remove the lime flux used in the mfg process, I sorta skipped that step and high ph completely locked out nutrients, almost killed them. Thay are doing fine now, and I think I will use them again. To be clear I germinate in oasis and transplant into rock wool, these blocks are placed on perlite or coir for grow out hydroponically. Hope thats not TMI! Good luck!

August 10, 2015	#11
Gerardo Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Diego-Tijuana Posts: 2,598	It seems you have everything else covered: light, nutes (the 1/4 strength should have been just fine), growing media (that mix has everything), TLC. So I'm gonna put my money on the pH 4.0 water.