Goose Creek and Creole ramblings in history

mensplace · December 16, 2009

It is fascinating to me to see how a simple question on varieties (wish I had a tomato family tree) can lead to a morning’s quest for information. In looking over tomatoes for hot/humid areas, I went first to some Florida research history and then was delighted to be led to Goose Creek and Creole. Those familiar with the French Huguenot & French Acadian cultures and foods of Charleston are well aware of the similar climates and foods.
But, in going further back, the coastal South Carolina area was originally settled by the Spanish back in 1514 and held, except for a period around 1562 when the French arrived, but returned to the Spanish who built forts in Parris Island, Jekyll Island, and St. Simons Island.
During that whole period, there was frequent contact with the Cherokee, Catawba, Yemessee, and Creek Indians. Thing is, I cannot buy the story that the Spanish were responsible for bringing the tomato to the Indians. I live right next to Etowah mounds and have studied the Cherokee and Aztec cultures. Etowah was in fact home to an ancient and huge Cherokee culture that dated back to the pre-Columbian times with extensive trade routes that reached well out to the west, where they received items from Middle American tribes, who, in turn, had a reach down into South America. The similarities of food, language, and cultures are countless.
Almost all of the land that I own here was owned by the Cherokee until around 1838. Some fled to the Appalachians but most went to Oklahoma. BUT, for long before that many of the Cherokee owned large plantations, had intermarried with the Scots, and their knowledge of agriculture had been considerable for hundreds of years. That Cherokee culture spanned Georgia and Carolina.

Did the Spaniards bring the tomatoes or were they already long known by the Indians? Already, “in 1687, the English Herbalist, William Solomon, observed tomatoes growing in then Spanish settlements along the eastern coastline as far as Parris Island's Santa Elana Mission. French Huguenots and British Colonist settlers as well as Caribbean residents settling in the southern areas were familiar with the love apple and its uses.
Henry Laurens, Merchant and plantation owner, grew tomatoes at his home in Charles Town. On July 31, 1764, he sent some to Mrs. Creamer, wife of the overseer on his plantation. Ten years later the first published reference to tomatoes appeared in the Gardener's Kalendar for South-Carolina.”

Either way, I am glad to be preparing to sample growing and tasting the Goose Creek and the Creole. My family has been enjoying that low country food since the sixteen hundreds and it just my heart good to think of my privateer forebear from Seewee Bay enjoying a good tomato sandwich in those hot/muggy summers along with some Carolina barbecue brought from the islands by other buccaneers.

stevenkh1 · January 1, 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by mensplace

...Thing is, I cannot buy the story that the Spanish were responsible for bringing the tomato to the Indians...

You are correct: tomatoes were discovered in the Americas. As were corn, peppers, beans, potatoes, sweet potatoes, the cocoa bean, the vanilla bean, peanuts, pumpkins, blueberries, and sunflowers.

**carolyn137** · January 2, 2010

The variety Creole was bred by Louisiana State University and released in 1940.

And yes, as the Spanish went north from Mexico they took with them and spread around what we call today currant tomatoes ( S.pimpinellifolium) and cerasiforme ones ( S. lycopersicon, cerasiforme) as is the variety Matt's Wild and in the other species section of the SSE Yearbooks there are many of these two kinds. They were spread all along the Gulf coast over to FL as the Spanish missionaries had carried them from Mexico. How the various species of tomatoes got to Mexico from their place of origin in the highlands of Chile and Peru is still not known for sure.

Jimmy Williams Goose Creek has been a highly debated tomato variety and I think there may even be a thread or two here about it. He claimed that it dated from, and now I can't remember the date off hand, but the problem is that his Goose Creek is a pink smooth variety and at that time there were no smooth varieties,

Several years ago I was contacted by a fact checker from a magazine that had planned to write a story about him and his tomato. I did a lot of background checking and even though I knew that there were no smooth tomatoes at that time I went ahead and contacted Andrew Smith who wrote a good book about tomato history, and I know Andy, and he agreed with me that the story didn't hold true b'c there were no smooth tomatoes at that time. I don't know if the magazine ever ran that story or not.

Jimmy Williams also tried to patent his Goose Creek and in most threads where this variety is talked about someone usually gives a link to his patent application and I'm telling you it's weird as can be, and makes no sense. Besides, one can't patent an heirloom variety; one needs to show genetic input into a variety in order to patent it.

And if there's one Indian tribe I'm up to date on it's the Cherkee, not only b'c of the varriety Cherokee Purple but also b'c of the variety Indian Stripe, which is a version of CP a friend of mine found in Arkansas, where some Cherokee settled after they were forced by the US government in the Great Migration to move west from their ancestral areas in Fl, GA, SC, NC and Tennesee. Actually there were several migrations west of the Cherokee.

There is still a Cherokee presence in Arkansas as there are in several other states. Not all made it to Oklahoma where they were forced to go. My brother now lives in NC and very near a Cherokee site that's being studied by archaeologists which I also know b'c I subscribe to three different such magazines and it was featured in one of them, b'c history is one of my passions, especially archaeology.

Hope that helps.

**Mischka** · January 2, 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Jimmy Williams Goose Creek has been a highly debated tomato variety and I think there may even be a thread or two here about it...

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...creek#post2111

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthrea...ht=goose+creek

One dubious website in particular continues to falsely state that the O.P. tomato variety Goose Creek is patented, i.e. PVP. (see thumbnail image at the bottom of this post)

It isn't, and never has been patented for the reason Carolyn gave above. There are a few less-than-honest people out there trying to promote false pedigrees/histories to create hype over particular tomato varieties. They selfishly do this to increase their sales of plants and seeds to uninformed tomato growers.

As an example, this is a word-for-word quote I copied from an online gardening blog:

Quote:

This tomato was the most expensive one I bought this year, but I just had to have it. Put the word ‘rare’ in the description of any plant and my wallet is in my hand and I am handing out my credit card info.

On top of that, this is a tomato with history and adventure. Who wouldn’t want a tomato that has been smuggled by slaves and handed down from parent to child for generations?

You are now informed.

p.s. One single plant will cost you $7.95 plus shipping.

rnewste · January 2, 2010

As many TV members here know, I (and others) will send out Goose Creek seeds to any fellow member who simply requests them. Goose Creek has been my favorite tomato variety for a few years now, and I am happy to spread the "joy" to others - - no charge.

Raybo

**Mischka** · January 2, 2010

Thank you again Ray, for making this variety available to folks here so generously.

It always irks me to see people take advantage of other people when it comes to OP and heirloom tomato varieties.

Regardless of where it came from, a good tasting tomato is a good tasting tomato!

Blueaussi · January 2, 2010

I certainly agree with the comments on the ethics, or lack there of, of folks trying to make a bunch of money off heirloom or open pollinated varieties of any plant. Brushing all that aside for the moment, however, I'm wondering about the actual history of the Goose Creek tomato.

How possible is it that it is an actual family heirloom, that the ancestress did bring seeds of a tomato from the West Indies; but over the years it cross-pollinated and/or was selected to get the tomato we know as Goose Creek? That is is a family heirloom, just not exactly what they think it is?

I'm interested because of its association with South Carolina. I I help out every year with a plant booth at the Historic Camden Revolutionary War Park twice a year. We operate on donations, and the money goes to Historic Camden. Although we'll take anything, I like to bring in plants with some history, and sometimes if we can trace it back far enough, one or two of my plants end up in a garden there. So, while I'm very interested in growing Goose Creek for myself, I would also like to have a couple of plants to take to Historic Camden for their garden. If, that is, the history cleared up a bit.

**carolyn137** · January 2, 2010

If, that is, the history cleared up a bit.

****

The problem is I don't know how it can be cleared up. Jimmy Williams has been saying from the get go that what he has IS the family heirloom alledgedly from the Caribbean, ending up in Goose Creek, etc.

Your suggestion of possible crossing and selection thru the generations is a good one but contradicts what William's himself says.

DanishGardener · January 2, 2010

Quote:

There were no smooth tomatoes at that time

Carolyn- could you explain to me, what you mean by "smooth tomatoes"?

Blueaussi · January 2, 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mischka

. (see thumbnail image at the bottom of this post)

"The catch-phrase "You need more tomatoes" is the intellectual property of Laurel Garza and subject to copyright law. "

Wait...what?

*cackles*

Oh dear. You think this Laurel person takes herself just a wee bit too seriously?
Thanks for the laugh, Mischka!

**carolyn137** · January 2, 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanishGardener

Carolyn- could you explain to me, what you mean by "smooth tomatoes"?

If you read any historyies of tomatoes in general you'll find that until about the late-1850's they had lumpy bumpy surfaces to one degree or another; they weren't smooth. In Andrew F Smith's book he also shows paintings of tomatoes done pre-1800 and you can see how mishapen they were.

It's generally agreed that the first smooth tomato was the variety Trophy which was first made available in 1860 here in the US. Trophy crossed the Atlantic and was renamed I think in France to Grosse Lisse, which is still grown in Australia, but it's Trophy. Many of the first US smooth varieties also crossed the Atlantic to England,Europe, etc.

Carolyn

**carolyn137** · January 2, 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

Wait...what?

*cackles*

Oh dear. You think this Laurel person takes herself just a wee bit too seriously?
Thanks for the laugh, Mischka!

I do know this Laurel person quite well and it's b'c of me that she got into the business of selling plants years ago, but I had nothing to do with her partnership with Gary Ibsen of Tomatofest.

She's changed a lot since I first knew her.

Blueaussi · January 2, 2010

Carolyn, Google turns up two tomato books by Andrew Smith.

"Souper Tomatoes: The Story of America's Favorite Food"

"The Tomato in America: Early History, Culture, and Cookery"

Is the second one the book you're referencing? Is it a good book to add to a tomato grower's wish list?

**Mischka** · January 2, 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

Carolyn, Google turns up two tomato books by Andrew Smith.

"Souper Tomatoes: The Story of America's Favorite Food"

"The Tomato in America: Early History, Culture, and Cookery"

Is the second one the book you're referencing? Is it a good book to add to a tomato grower's wish list?

I have the second book and it's a very interesting read. I think it's worth a place on any tomato lover's bookshelf. The chapter describing the tomato pill craze is a real hoot.

**carolyn137** · January 2, 2010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueaussi

Carolyn, Google turns up two tomato books by Andrew Smith.

"Souper Tomatoes: The Story of America's Favorite Food"

"The Tomato in America: Early History, Culture, and Cookery"

Is the second one the book you're referencing? Is it a good book to add to a tomato grower's wish list?

Yes, it's the second one.

Andy has written books about popcorn, catsup, soup, peanuts, and I can't remember what else.

You should be able to find it in paperback. His writing style bothered me a bit in certain places but it's the information that's important. I used some of his material in the front of my book, with his permission, and also listed it in the back of the book as a reference.

We were once in constant contact but less so of late and I really should e-mail him to catch up.

December 16, 2009	#1
mensplace Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: USA Posts: 1,013	Goose Creek and Creole ramblings in history It is fascinating to me to see how a simple question on varieties (wish I had a tomato family tree) can lead to a morning’s quest for information. In looking over tomatoes for hot/humid areas, I went first to some Florida research history and then was delighted to be led to Goose Creek and Creole. Those familiar with the French Huguenot & French Acadian cultures and foods of Charleston are well aware of the similar climates and foods. But, in going further back, the coastal South Carolina area was originally settled by the Spanish back in 1514 and held, except for a period around 1562 when the French arrived, but returned to the Spanish who built forts in Parris Island, Jekyll Island, and St. Simons Island. During that whole period, there was frequent contact with the Cherokee, Catawba, Yemessee, and Creek Indians. Thing is, I cannot buy the story that the Spanish were responsible for bringing the tomato to the Indians. I live right next to Etowah mounds and have studied the Cherokee and Aztec cultures. Etowah was in fact home to an ancient and huge Cherokee culture that dated back to the pre-Columbian times with extensive trade routes that reached well out to the west, where they received items from Middle American tribes, who, in turn, had a reach down into South America. The similarities of food, language, and cultures are countless. Almost all of the land that I own here was owned by the Cherokee until around 1838. Some fled to the Appalachians but most went to Oklahoma. BUT, for long before that many of the Cherokee owned large plantations, had intermarried with the Scots, and their knowledge of agriculture had been considerable for hundreds of years. That Cherokee culture spanned Georgia and Carolina. Did the Spaniards bring the tomatoes or were they already long known by the Indians? Already, “in 1687, the English Herbalist, William Solomon, observed tomatoes growing in then Spanish settlements along the eastern coastline as far as Parris Island's Santa Elana Mission. French Huguenots and British Colonist settlers as well as Caribbean residents settling in the southern areas were familiar with the love apple and its uses. Henry Laurens, Merchant and plantation owner, grew tomatoes at his home in Charles Town. On July 31, 1764, he sent some to Mrs. Creamer, wife of the overseer on his plantation. Ten years later the first published reference to tomatoes appeared in the Gardener's Kalendar for South-Carolina.” Either way, I am glad to be preparing to sample growing and tasting the Goose Creek and the Creole. My family has been enjoying that low country food since the sixteen hundreds and it just my heart good to think of my privateer forebear from Seewee Bay enjoying a good tomato sandwich in those hot/muggy summers along with some Carolina barbecue brought from the islands by other buccaneers.

January 2, 2010	#3
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	The variety Creole was bred by Louisiana State University and released in 1940. And yes, as the Spanish went north from Mexico they took with them and spread around what we call today currant tomatoes ( S.pimpinellifolium) and cerasiforme ones ( S. lycopersicon, cerasiforme) as is the variety Matt's Wild and in the other species section of the SSE Yearbooks there are many of these two kinds. They were spread all along the Gulf coast over to FL as the Spanish missionaries had carried them from Mexico. How the various species of tomatoes got to Mexico from their place of origin in the highlands of Chile and Peru is still not known for sure. Jimmy Williams Goose Creek has been a highly debated tomato variety and I think there may even be a thread or two here about it. He claimed that it dated from, and now I can't remember the date off hand, but the problem is that his Goose Creek is a pink smooth variety and at that time there were no smooth varieties, Several years ago I was contacted by a fact checker from a magazine that had planned to write a story about him and his tomato. I did a lot of background checking and even though I knew that there were no smooth tomatoes at that time I went ahead and contacted Andrew Smith who wrote a good book about tomato history, and I know Andy, and he agreed with me that the story didn't hold true b'c there were no smooth tomatoes at that time. I don't know if the magazine ever ran that story or not. Jimmy Williams also tried to patent his Goose Creek and in most threads where this variety is talked about someone usually gives a link to his patent application and I'm telling you it's weird as can be, and makes no sense. Besides, one can't patent an heirloom variety; one needs to show genetic input into a variety in order to patent it. And if there's one Indian tribe I'm up to date on it's the Cherkee, not only b'c of the varriety Cherokee Purple but also b'c of the variety Indian Stripe, which is a version of CP a friend of mine found in Arkansas, where some Cherokee settled after they were forced by the US government in the Great Migration to move west from their ancestral areas in Fl, GA, SC, NC and Tennesee. Actually there were several migrations west of the Cherokee. There is still a Cherokee presence in Arkansas as there are in several other states. Not all made it to Oklahoma where they were forced to go. My brother now lives in NC and very near a Cherokee site that's being studied by archaeologists which I also know b'c I subscribe to three different such magazines and it was featured in one of them, b'c history is one of my passions, especially archaeology. Hope that helps. __________________ Carolyn

January 2, 2010	#6
Mischka Tomatoville® Administrator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Bay State Posts: 3,207	Thank you again Ray, for making this variety available to folks here so generously. It always irks me to see people take advantage of other people when it comes to OP and heirloom tomato varieties. Regardless of where it came from, a good tasting tomato is a good tasting tomato! __________________ Mischka One last word of farewell, Dear Master and Mistress. Whenever you visit my grave, say to yourselves with regret but also with happiness in your hearts at the remembrance of my long happy life with you: "Here lies one who loved us and whom we loved." No matter how deep my sleep I shall hear you, and not all the power of death can keep my spirit from wagging a grateful tail.

January 2, 2010	#8
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	If, that is, the history cleared up a bit. **** The problem is I don't know how it can be cleared up. Jimmy Williams has been saying from the get go that what he has IS the family heirloom alledgedly from the Caribbean, ending up in Goose Creek, etc. Your suggestion of possible crossing and selection thru the generations is a good one but contradicts what William's himself says. __________________ Carolyn

January 2, 2010	#5
rnewste Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Campbell, CA Posts: 4,064	As many TV members here know, I (and others) will send out Goose Creek seeds to any fellow member who simply requests them. Goose Creek has been my favorite tomato variety for a few years now, and I am happy to spread the "joy" to others - - no charge. Raybo

January 2, 2010	#7
Blueaussi Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: South Carolina Zone 8a Posts: 1,205	I certainly agree with the comments on the ethics, or lack there of, of folks trying to make a bunch of money off heirloom or open pollinated varieties of any plant. Brushing all that aside for the moment, however, I'm wondering about the actual history of the Goose Creek tomato. How possible is it that it is an actual family heirloom, that the ancestress did bring seeds of a tomato from the West Indies; but over the years it cross-pollinated and/or was selected to get the tomato we know as Goose Creek? That is is a family heirloom, just not exactly what they think it is? I'm interested because of its association with South Carolina. I I help out every year with a plant booth at the Historic Camden Revolutionary War Park twice a year. We operate on donations, and the money goes to Historic Camden. Although we'll take anything, I like to bring in plants with some history, and sometimes if we can trace it back far enough, one or two of my plants end up in a garden there. So, while I'm very interested in growing Goose Creek for myself, I would also like to have a couple of plants to take to Historic Camden for their garden. If, that is, the history cleared up a bit.