native soil for heirloom varieties

[garden381]

Hi Everyone!
So, I LOVE the black krim (Crim)tomato. I had a thought on how i could produce even more than my 7 plants currently develop. Then it hit me. A Heirloom must have started someplace and if i find the soil content where it came from and try to reproduce the soil here, then 'all' that remains is the climate to deal with.
Unfortunately for me, i used all of my aloted tomato space for the first planting in the garden, 7 large plants all producing, 1 of which is a clone of the largest strongest plant.
ANYWAYS, for those of you whom wish to try this with the black krim in your own garden OR container i am providing the content of the pertinent artical, which i will be using that contains the info for this project. enjoy and good luck!
===============
In the Crimea there is an analogous, although inverse, sequence of soil belts associated with rising elevation from north to south: in the north, chestnut soils with associated solonetz soils and solonchak soils; in the middle, southern chernozems, followed by a carbonate-rich, shallow variant of the common chernozems and small areas of chernozems on heavy clays (Kerch Peninsula); and in the mountains, stony brown mountainforest soils interspersed with small pockets of mountain meadow soils at the highest elevations. On the warm south slopes the soil is transitional into the reddish brown soils typical in a Mediterranean climate.

A similar sequence occurs in Subcaucasia, with carbonate-rich variants of the common chernozems and the deep chernozems at low elevations in the north, carbonate-rich brown mountain forest soils on the mountain slopes, and mountain meadow soils at the highest elevations. On the southern slopes to the Black Sea coast are reddish brown soils. Only the broad alluvial plain of the Kuban River is dominated by ‘azonal’ alluvial soils; its delta contains ‘intrazonal’ bog soils.

In the Crimea there is an analogous, although inverse, sequence of soil belts associated with rising elevation from north to south: in the north, chestnut soils with associated solonetz soils and solonchak soils; in the middle, southern chernozems, followed by a carbonate-rich, shallow variant of the common chernozems and small areas of chernozems on heavy clays (Kerch Peninsula); and in the mountains, stony brown mountainforest soils interspersed with small pockets of mountain meadow soils at the highest elevations. On the warm south slopes the soil is transitional into the reddish brown soils typical in a Mediterranean climate.

A similar sequence occurs in Subcaucasia, with carbonate-rich variants of the common chernozems and the deep chernozems at low elevations in the north, carbonate-rich brown mountain forest soils on the mountain slopes, and mountain meadow soils at the highest elevations. On the southern slopes to the Black Sea coast are reddish brown soils. Only the broad alluvial plain of the Kuban River is dominated by ‘azonal’ alluvial soils; its delta contains ‘intrazonal’ bog soils.

[garden381]

location of the original areas for the black krim (CRIM)

[joseph]

Originally Posted by garden381

A Heirloom must have started someplace and if i find the soil content where it came from and try to reproduce the soil here, then 'all' that remains is the climate to deal with.

And the invertebrate animals, and the farmer's habits, and the micro-organisms, and the angle of the sun, and the daylength, and the equipment, and the weeds...

[carolyn137]

Black Krim was one of the first so called blacks that was listed in the SSE Yearbooks. When I joined SSE in 1989 there were only 5 black ones and it was first listed by Lars, from Sweden, in 1990 and I grew it in either 1991 or 1992 and many times after that.

Tania has it right when she says:

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Black_Krim

That is, not on any island as many say, but for sure somewhere in the Crimean peninsula of Ukraine, not Russia back then as many also say. If Lars were still with us I'm sure he could tell us the exact place, but the southern part of Crimea is quite tropical, think Sevastopol, and was an excellent place for many crops, including tomatoes.

Carolyn

[Bipetual]

Kinda reminds me of Dracula and his Transylvanian soil!

Hey, if it works for vampires it should definitely work for tomatoes.

[garden381]

so very true Joseph. We here in usa can supplement soils, provide artificial time lights, but we cannot most likely provide the othes mentioned however scientific and biologic entities in Ukraine,such as http://http://ukrmap.su/en-g8/879.html

which states: From Ukraine's history course you already know about one of the oldest cultures in Europe cultivation of land - farmer Trypillya culture, archaeologists at the open with. Tripoli (Kiev). Already in IV - The third millennium BCE. our ancestors settled in the lands of Right Bank Ukraine and grew up on them bread. Since agriculture, including farming became the core lifestyle old Ukrainian. Ukrainian peasant always treated respectfully land breastfeeding, loved and cherished her. Over the centuries it is viddyachuvala him bountiful harvest. When the early nineteenth century. under cultivation fell vast expanses of steppe black earth of Ukraine, she became the first “granary” Europe.

Grown yields - the result of teamwork and human and nature. Important natural success factor has always been farming soil. For the territory of Ukraine characterized by diverse soil.

Terms of soil. Soils formed in Ukraine result of interaction between different soil factors - parent rocks, natural waters, climate, topography, vegetation, of animals and microorganisms, the economic impact of man.

Parent breeds (Background) is determined mineral composition, physical and chemical properties of soil. In Ukraine, such species are quaternary sediments - mostly sand and loess. They are to soil fall aerosol particles - clay and sand, and in mountainous areas added more debris - gravel and crushed stone.

ClimateIncluding the ratio of heat and moisture affects the formation of different types of soil. Thus, in conditions of excessive waterlogged soil moisture is formed, which can be formed peaty layer and clay - gray stain zakysnyh iron compounds. Insufficient moisture causes the formation of saline soils: a place to surface moisture quickly evaporates, rises from the depths of water with dissolved salt. Impact climate on soil formation is also carried through vegetation. In warm and damp climates formed enough lush grass vegetation, after which the mortality of many forms of humus (humus). So to many herbaceous vegetation formed fertile soils. Conversely, in excessive dryness of the climate formed loose vegetation, humus produced little, and therefore will be less fertile soils or poor.

AnimalsLiving in the soil (earthworms, moles), fluff it crushed and the remains of plants. Ultimately makes the remains of dead plants and animals on humus microorganisms (Various bacteria). They splitting the organic remains of minerals and chemical elements - Nitrogen, calcium, potassium, carbon, phosphorus, Sulfur and others. Only in this manner they can once again acquire the plant. In addition, humus and calcium sticking together another solid mineral particles in soil lumps of different sizes, among which water penetrates the soil and air.

Human activities can improve soil fertility in terms of scientifically grounded its soil or its reduction as a result of unsustainable management. Important to improve soil quality is of organic and mineral fertilizers.

The process of soil formation is very slowly. In temperate middle latitudes, where the Ukraine, fertile soil layer thickness 0,5 - 2 cm formed about 100 years. Fully formed the same ground has a capacity of 1 - 2 m and consists of several layers - the horizon. In terms of soil (soil profile) shows its layered structure.



Amazing Ukraine

Nondescript earthworms

Probably you will not find another animal in the world that has played such a large role in nature. Army of underground pitmen 1 ha of soil is 130 thousand individuals total weight 400 kg. During the year they turn over more than 30 tons of earth.

Charles Darwin, the nineteenth century.

The main types of soil plains parts. In Ukraine formed different soils. Their distribution on the flat part is subordinated to the law pulse zoning (soil vary from north to south).

Sod-podzol soils distributed mainly on Still alive. They were formed in conditions of excessive moisture in pine and mixed forests. Parent rock for them to serve as water-ice sandy sediments. These small soil humus content (up to 1,5%), clearly expressed by the so-called podzolic horizon from which nutrients are washed away deep down. Therefore they have low fertility.

Gray forest soils common in the southern part of Polesie, the west and the Right Bank of Ukraine under wide-forest areas. They formed in loamy soils in sufficient moisture. The content of humus in them are also small - 3%, so their Natural fertility is low.

Black soil formed on lesah in insufficient moisture in the steppe vegetation. Great humus content (8 - 15%) and granular structure and Clotted make them not only in the most fertile Ukraine, but in the world. Humus layer of the chernozem has considerable power - from 40 cm to 1 m or more. These soils, which cover nearly 65% of Ukraine is its national wealth. In Ukraine, fifth part of all black world. Different different parts of the country spread black subtypes: the forest - black ashed and typical, North of the steppe - ordinary black, in southern steppe - Southern black. A variety of subtypes and their properties caused by different zvolozhenistyu territory.

In the dry steppe areas in low moisture and poor vegetation appeared chestnut soil. They have little humus content - 3%, but powerful enough humus - 55 cm For obtain high yields of crops, these soils require additional moisture.

Besides the main zonal types of soils on the flat part of Ukraine on Polesie formed Swamp йpeat-swamp, and in river valleys - meadow йmeadow marsh. In the forest-steppe and some small spots distributed salt - Marginal soils, which traced the horizon of high content of salts. In the southern plains were formed Salt Flat-Barren soil with high salt content across its width. For growing plants such soils require irrigation and gypsuming. Because of intensive salt water flushing in the closed reduction of relief turn on maltIn which the salt layer disappears, but there are clay horizon

Soils mountain. The mountains were formed as different types of soils that change according to law poyasnosti altitude - from the bottom to the top.

В Ukrainian Carpathians the largest areas are brown. In Prykarpattya and at the foot of Transcarpathia common varieties brownsoil-podzolic soils. In the woods to a height of almost 1500 m above sea level formed a thin, schebenysti brown mountain-forest soils. Above, on the treeless hills, meadows and other mountain tops common mountain-meadow soils.

У Crimean mountains in foothill areas and on the northern slopes to a height of 450 m distributed mountain-steppe soils - sod-carbonate та gray. Formed under shrub and herbaceous vegetation. Major soils of Mountain Crimea - as storm mountain-forestThat extended to a height of 850 m under beech, oak and mixed forests. In jajlah of meadow vegetation dominated mountain meadow chornozemovydni soils. On Southern Crimea, Where the climate is sub-tropical, with sufficient moistening prevail brown and red-brown soils. They are quite fertile: humus content is 4%.



Records Ukraine

The most fertile soils are not only in Ukraine but the world is black. Humus layer, which can reach 120 cm! Their fertility once said: "The Earth as good, that plant thill, then grow tarantas.



Land resources. Earth used or can be used by man for its needs, create land resources country. All land in Ukraine, in fact, are such states. They are used in agriculture and forestry, they erected residential buildings and industrial facilities, transport routes are built. Part of land covered natural and artificial reservoirs, which are used in commercial purposes.

About 70% of the land resources of Ukraine - is farmland, most of which concentrated in the fertile soils and very under cultivation. Arable land (or arable land) is 4 / 5 of the total area of agricultural land - is one of the highest in the world. Provision of per capita farmland of the country exceeds world and European indexes almost 2,5 times. The highest share of arable land steppe zone - about 90%. This allows you to develop a variety of industry agriculture. However, such high plowed land often leads to increased water and wind erosion soil - demolition fertile layer. The resulting ravines and beams, dust storms occur. Great cause bad damage to soil tillage, irrigation and unsystematic fertilization. Consequently, the soils are destroyed and depleted, reduced their fertility.

For keeping soil in good condition should take various measures: plant trees and shrubs on the slopes of ravines, to stop their growth, the slopes of hills plow across to prevent flushing the soil surface waters, as irrigate land proved scientifically to make fertilizers.

[garden381]

Blah,blahhhh blaaaaaaa

[Redbaron]

Actually that is quite to the point. The Ukrainian "Black" soil is very similar to the heartland old tallgrass prairie soils found in the US. Basically the prime land that starts in parts of Indiana and encompasses most of Illinois Kansas etc.. of our corn belt and a small sliver even passes south through Oklahoma and into the "Texas blackland prairies" region. Very productive and characteristically with a black, extraordinarily deep, mollic epipedon. Quite rare in the rest of the world, and besides USA and Ukraine almost never seen except in local patches, especially that deep. Certain parts of the steppe are quite similar to our tallgrass prairies. It is THE prime agricultural land, bar none. But it is in rapid decline due to conventional agricultural methods.

Here in Oklahoma most of it blew away in the wind during the dust bowl. But where you can find it, awesome for growing the tastiest tomatoes.

[bughunter99]

How do you know Black Krim originated in Ukranian native soil and not in something someone bought at a Ukranian box store ?

[garden381]

it is well known by Universities throughout the world that SEVRERAL varieties of HEIRLOOM tomatos originated in that area. Krim (or crim in some cases) originated in or very near Crimea Ukraine, which is almost an island now but was a well connected isthmus at one point in time.
Black Krim
A very popular heirloom that originates from the Isle of Krim in the Black Sea off the coast of the Crimean Peninsula. This is one of the first heirloom tomatos and is largely responsible for black 'krim' heirloom tomatos today.Care MUST be taken to maintain the 'Heirloom' status because of cross pollination and interbreeding. Buy from RELIABLE sources. The medium to large size fruit are oblate and usually have numerous cracks around the stem end. The color varies according to the climate but generally the hotter the climate the darker the fruit. Indeterminate, regular leaf foliage. (85 days from transplant).

[garden381]

Hi Caroline137,
Please help me.
after having extreme success with the black crim, i decided to try to grow the 'Black from TULA' variety.
Do you or anyone else have comparison info or experiance with this tomato?
ALL info and input is appreciated.
=Garden381,mike

[garden381]

following is a partial BLACK TOMATO LIST copy and pastedhttp://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/C...Black_Tomatoes from WIKI...


(Sungold x Juliet) x Black Cherry
1
1884 Purple
A
Adelaide Festival
African Brown
Aker's West Virginia Black
Amazon Chocolate
Ambrosia Giant
Ananas Noire
Ania
Antho Violett
Arbuznyi
Aunt Ruby's German Black Cherry
Austin's Black Cherry
B
Baby Russian
Bear Creek
Becker's Blaue Dolgener
Beduin
Berkeley Tie-Dye Heart
Berkeley Tie-Dye, Pink
Big Cheef
Bill's Berkeley Pink
BKX
Black
Black Aisberg
Black Altai
Black and Brown Boar
Black and Red Boar
Black Anna
Black Bear
Black Bell
Black Brae
Black Brandywine X Green Zebra F1
Black Brandywine, Regular Leaf
Black Burgundy
Black Cherry
Black Cherry x Green Zebra
Black Crimson
Black Early
Black Elephant
Black Elephant, Regular Leaf
Black Emperor
Black Ethiopian
Black from Tula
Black from Tula Potato Leaf
Black Krim
Black Magic
Black Mamba
Black Master
Black Mystery
Black Opal
Black Pearl F1
Black Plum
Black Plum x Black Zebra
Black Prince
Black Prince X Cherokee Purple
Black Roma
Black Ruffled
Black Russian
Black Sea Man
Black Tom
Black Yum Yum
Black Zebra
Black Zebra Cherry
Blackberry
Blackstar
Blaue Helarios
Blaue Kasachstan
B cont.
Blue
Blue Chocolate
Blue Estland
Blue Fruit
Blue Ridge Black
Blue Sky
Blueberry
Boar's Hoof
Bordo
Boronia
Brad's Black Heart
Brandywine, Black
Brandywine, True Black
Brazilian Beauty
Brown Berry
Brown Cherry
Brown Derby Mix
Brown Flesh
Brown Flesh Jumbo
Bundaberg Rumball
C
Cafe Bule
Cappuccino
Carbon
Carol Chyko's Big Paste Black
Chadds Ford
Chernaya Vishnya
Cherniy Gigant
Chernoe Serdtse (a.k.a. Black Heart)
Chernoe Yabloko
Chernomor
Chernomor Regular Leaf
Cherny Mavr
Chernyi Krim
Chernyi Mamont
Chernyi Mavr
Cherokee Chocolate
Cherokee Purple
Cherokee Purple Heart
Cherokee Purple, Potato Leaf
Cherokee Tiger Black
Cherry, Black Striped
Cherry, Black Sweet
Chinese Purple
Chocolate
Chocolate Brown
Chocolate Champion
Chocolate Cherry
Chocolate Lightning
Chocolate Pear
Chocolate Princess
Chocolate Stripes
Christmas Purple Grapes
Chyornyi Slon
Chyornyi Tarasenko
Chyornyi Tulpan
Cinnamon Pear
Clario Purple
Coeur de Surpriz
Coffee Striped
Cookie F1
Crème Brulee
Cuban Black
D
D. B. Cooper
Dana's Dusky Rose
Dark Rose
David
De Barao Black
D cont.
De Berao Braun
Despina
Dice's Mystery Black
Dwarf Purple Heart
Dwarf Wild Fred
E
Efiop
Evan's Purple Pear
F
Filipino 2
Fioletovyi Kruglyi
Frankstein Black
Fred's Tie Dye
G
Galatea
Gary'O Sena
GBT lines
German Black
Giant Fiolet
Gold Stripes
Golova Negra
Grandma Oliver Chocolate
Green Zebra x Black Cherry
Grousha Tcheornaya
Guernsey Island
Gypsy
H
Haley's Purple Comet
Harvard Square
Heart's Delite Black
Heaven's Joy
Hector
Honkin' Big Black Cherry
Huge Black
I
Indian Dark Violet Beefsteak
Indian Stripe
Indian Stripe Plus
Indigo Rose
Indische Fleisch
Italian Black
Italienne Noire
J
Jack Johnson
Japanese Trifele Black
JD's Special C Tex
Jeff's Purple
Joffre
K
Kardinal Tchyornyi
Kazachka
Kiss The Sky
Korichnevaya Sliva
Korichnevyi Sakhar
Korney's Cross
Kozula 126 Czarny Lagodny
Kozula 128 Fiolet Ciemny
Kozula 129 Czarny Twardy
Kozula 130 Fiolet Zebra Ciemna
Kozula 138 Malinowa Zebra
Krem-Brule
Kumato
L
Large Barred Boar
Large Black and Red Boar
Lila Sari
Lilac
Lost Marbles
M
Madame Jardel's Black
Maltitzer Braune
Manchester Plum
Marcia's Mystery Black
Marina's Black
Marizol Black

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by garden381

Hi Caroline137,
Please help me.
after having extreme success with the black crim, i decided to try to grow the 'Black from TULA' variety.
Do you or anyone else have comparison info or experiance with this tomato?
ALL info and input is appreciated.
=Garden381,mike

First let me speak to your post above. If you look at Tania's page for Black Krim she makes it very clear that Black Krim was first found IN the Ukraine, not on an Isle ofKrim. The fact that historically there was no seperation IMO is not relevant in terms of past changes of geography as it relates to tomato varieties, which originated in South America.

You say that many Universiteis say that many different so called black varieties originated in the crimea but being one who is very interested in tomato histories, please name some b'c I don't off hand know of any other named ones.

If you look at my post #4 in this thread you'll see that I noted that when I joined SSE in 1989 there were only 4 or 5 black varieties, and some of those came from Russians who came to Alaska from Siberia and brought seeds with them.

No doubt there may havef been other black ones that could have been grown but had no names. I think what's important is that most folks would agree that the original mutations that led to black ones did occur in Russia, whether in the Ukraine or elsewhere isn't known. How I wish I could link to the study done assaying the 5 gf alleles that are associated with black ones, b'c it strongly suggests places of origin, but that study is no longer available sincee Hoouzz bought out GW.

Yes, I have grown both Black Krim and black fromTula.
Some so called blacks have a yellow epidermis as does black Krim and some have a clear epi such as black from Tula.

Tania has this to say about the origin of Black from Tula.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Black_from_Tula

Tania suggests an origin in the Ukraine and then says possibly Tula, but Tula is now where's near theUkraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tula,_Russia

I much prefer those so called blacks that have a clear epi, which I call pink/blacks as opposed to those that have a yellow epidemis which I call red/blacks.

So I prefer ones with clear epis such as B from T, Cherokee Purple, Indian Stripe and the like. In my heirloom tomato book I also listed, along with B from T Black krim, but listed it as Noire de crimee and while it should be the same as black Krim it wasn't viz fruits were darker, more productive and the taste was superior

Noire was obtained from Norbert in France who contacted 4of us in the US and wanted to trade, we did, and this was one her sent in 1992.

Finally, what I've noticed over several decades re tomato varieties is that while once stable, X pollinations and more subtle mutations alter what a variety should be. Since I've never thrown out any saved seeds since the late 80's both Tania and remy have asked if I have this one or that one b/c what they had wasnot right for the variety and ofcourse I always say sure if I dohave what they are looking for.

Want to have some fun about the so called black ones? just go to Tania's website and pull up the B's and see how many are listed.

Time is up for I have to go back to the front room and watch more tennis from the French Open.

Carolyn

[garden381]

crimea mountain conditions for the black 'krim' (crim) tomato. Note the limestone peaks and harsh conditions which are native to the sub-tropical nature of the low-lands and the cool pine forest with rich soil of the mountain forest.
Combined, these conditions show how varied the black krim as well as other 'black' tomatoes can withstand conditions.



https://youtu.be/xLsAJfKQIMM

This video provided by cousin who visited, Rostyslav Konnov.

[garden381]

Thanks much Caroline137.

First let me acknoledge the obvious.

I appreciate the courtious and exceptionally informative reply.

While i do my best to research information, my experiance and contact with others who do this professionally are non-existant.
Infact ,this great website is the best info i have found to date as far as being able to communicate with others about this science.

My info and referances are only from the state of ukrain, as well as a relitive whom works for the university, and another whom works for the university of Maribor , in slovenia - link to main site (http://maribor-pohorje.si/botanicni-...ru-pivola.aspx

http://http://sorttest.by/chleny-upov

(link to main site)
happy french open,i've got this on the bigscreen! love it!
Look forward to your expertise.

Many thanks,
Michael pivola,III