Semi-Determinates your experience ??

[BlackBear]

Hey all ,
Semi- Determinate have interesting properties I think !

What is your experience with Semi-determinate ….the good and the bad … The varieties that you used ...
Any tips/experience on varieties used ?
Semi-determinates I have grown to the best of my knowledge are these :

Alaskan fancy
Fireball (starting this year)
La Roma(i/ii/iii)
Monomakh’s hat(A Winner !)
Orange -1(starting this year )
Russian apple Tree (next year)
Zaryanka (starting this year )


Other Semi-determinates of interest to me …but not tried .
Basket Vee
Glory of Moldova
Scotia

[NarnianGarden]

I wonder what criteria is used to determine (pun intended) what is semi-determinate..?

[CamuMahubah]

i think celebrity is a semi

i think the stem growth patterns determine the labelling

[NarnianGarden]

If determinates produce flower trusses after every two leaves and with indeterminates the interval is three leaves, how does a semi-determinate flower pattern look like? Two and half leaves?

[maf]

It confused me for years, but basically the semideterminate gene, sdt, is a modifier of the determinate habit and has no effect on indeterminate plants. The determinate varies between 1 and 2 nodes between flower clusters, whereas the semi-determinate always has 2.

From http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/.../1074.full.pdf

The plants were thus
defined as follows: determinate-plants with
up to five inflorescences with an average of
one to two leaves between them; semideter-
minate-plants with six or more inflores-
cences and two leaves between them; and
indeterminate-plants with three leaves be-
tween inflorescences.

This gene, denoted as sdt,
modifies the expression of the sp/sp
genotype by increasing the number of leaves
between inflorescences and the number of
inflorescences before termination of main stem
growth. The sdt gene is not expressed in the
presence of the dominant allele sp+ for in-
determinate growth. Thus, the semideter-
minate phenotype is exhibited in plants with
sp/sp, sdt/sdt

[travis]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

If determinates produce flower trusses after every two leaves and with indeterminates the interval is three leaves, how does a semi-determinate flower pattern look like? Two and half leaves?

As a matter of fact, yes, I have semi-determinates that do in fact produce flower trusses every two and one half internodes. The line came from a cross of Mozark x Sioux, and produced flower trusses as follows: An inflorescence appears mid-internode, then two internodes with no flowers, then the next inflorescence appears on the node directly opposite the leaf pediole. Maybe this is a "semi-indeterminate"

Also, there are determinates that flower within each internode, not skipping to the second internode as with other semi and fully determinate types. So, what I'm saying is that you will get flower trusses in between each leaf node.

I believe there still are genetics that need to be more fully explored as with the information that MAF provided from relatively new research regarding the sdt semi-determinate genetics.

As to the original post, I love semi-determinate types because you can get continuous production, greater yield per picking, over an extended window sometimes lasting until frost, and yet the vine is contained within a 5-foot tall cage. MoCross (Mozark x Sioux) has produced my favorite semi-determinate line so far; but I continue to outcross to find other semi-determinate combinations.

Celebrity is a widely grown, 5-foot semi-determinate that offers extensive disease resistance equal to Big Beef.

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by CamuMahubah

i think celebrity is a semi

i think the stem growth patterns determine the labelling

I think Celebrity is actually semi-determinate as well ..

to bad for me it is not as cooperative as the others listed in my climate.

I really like the disease resistance built in just in case........

but it never quite comes to the table early enough for me here.....

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by travis

As a matter of fact, yes, I have semi-determinates that do in fact produce flower trusses every two and one half internodes. The line came from a cross of Mozark x Sioux, and produced flower trusses as follows: An inflorescence appears mid-internode, then two internodes with no flowers, then the next inflorescence appears on the node directly opposite the leaf pediole. Maybe this is a "semi-indeterminate"

Also, there are determinates that flower within each internode, not skipping to the second internode as with other semi and fully determinate types. So, what I'm saying is that you will get flower trusses in between each leaf node.

I believe there still are genetics that need to be more fully explored as with the information that MAF provided from relatively new research regarding the sdt semi-determinate genetics.

As to the original post, I love semi-determinate types because you can get continuous production, greater yield per picking, over an extended window sometimes lasting until frost, and yet the vine is contained within a 5-foot tall cage. MoCross (Mozark x Sioux) has produced my favorite semi-determinate line so far; but I continue to outcross to find other semi-determinate combinations.

Celebrity is a widely grown, 5-foot semi-determinate that offers extensive disease resistance equal to Big Beef.

My interest is the " stretched " production window ....longer / more continuous than determinate ... but more focused than Indeterminate .

Also they seem more likely suited for containers that can be relocated to finish off a season from an out side (full summer ) growing area .

I think they could be used to keep fresh tomatoes growing right till Dec. 15-21 .

and then with the requisite shut down of operations under low temp and heat . Re-start

the cycle all over again about Feb. 14-Feb.21 (seedling time ).


I would not be interested in the full season production here as the climate considerations are not cost effective to carry through in the deep of winter.

So if there is a stretched production window longer than determinate ...and these semi are more compact and trainable than indeterminate ...are they not interesting ???


I might try and over Winter an indeterminate as a "Mother" plant to get a head start on using clones that would jump start spring production . ...but really the Semi -determinate have a potential to fit our average growing season here better ...or extend past the last frost as a moved container plant .


I guess it's the "Production Window " with moderated vines

that gets me ......

There are lots of compact/ dwarf / varieties ...but I think the Semi-determinate has potential for a better production match ...for me.


less energy in this type of culture potentially than the ripping out and re-planting ...for you determinate double croppers .

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by travis

As a matter of fact, yes, I have semi-determinates that do in fact produce flower trusses every two and one half internodes. The line came from a cross of Mozark x Sioux, and produced flower trusses as follows: An inflorescence appears mid-internode, then two internodes with no flowers, then the next inflorescence appears on the node directly opposite the leaf pediole. Maybe this is a "semi-indeterminate"

Also, there are determinates that flower within each internode, not skipping to the second internode as with other semi and fully determinate types. So, what I'm saying is that you will get flower trusses in between each leaf node.

I believe there still are genetics that need to be more fully explored as with the information that MAF provided from relatively new research regarding the sdt semi-determinate genetics.

As to the original post, I love semi-determinate types because you can get continuous production, greater yield per picking, over an extended window sometimes lasting until frost, and yet the vine is contained within a 5-foot tall cage. MoCross (Mozark x Sioux) has produced my favorite semi-determinate line so far; but I continue to outcross to find other semi-determinate combinations.

Celebrity is a widely grown, 5-foot semi-determinate that offers extensive disease resistance equal to Big Beef.

Beary interesting ! are you trying to eventually stabilize such crosses or are you are just happy with the F1 results and use them for your own culture pursuits.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

If determinates produce flower trusses after every two leaves and with indeterminates the interval is three leaves, how does a semi-determinate flower pattern look like? Two and half leaves?

Good point .
I think that semi-det is a description of either compact indet or a det with indet fruiting/ growth pattern, Continuous fruiting all season long not just a flush.
I could be wrong.

Gardeneer.

[Redbaron]

Best way to think of it is a determinate that keeps fruiting all season. I love em.

[AlittleSalt]

Bradley is determinate on one site and semi-det on another site. For us, it is growing semi-det.

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

Bradley is determinate on one site and semi-det on another site. For us, it is growing semi-det.

this is one reason I started this thread there seems to be mixed info out there

as to what seems to be an actual semi-determinate .

...also some seedhouses seem to catagorize various Tomatoes differently

the semi determinates ...being confusing .......can sometimes be listed as determinate

or indeterminate.....but in fact are neither !

if Bradley is actually a semi-determinate that would be awesome !

[Bipetual]

I think I've heard Moskvich or Moskovich described as semi determinate. I grew it and it was delicious but it didn't do well at all in a self watering container. Sickly and not overly productive. I would love to try it again, though.

[BlackBear]

Originally Posted by Bipetual

I think I've heard Moskvich or Moskovich described as semi determinate. I grew it and it was delicious but it didn't do well at all in a self watering container. Sickly and not overly productive. I would love to try it again, though.

I think I heard that as well .about Moskavich ..but the same problem of "what category is it ? " .......

I believe that there are possibly some most productive Tomatoes that are billed/classed as determinate that are

actually semi-determinate and have the interesting resulting properties !

The varieties are Mostly still called determinate because for some the semi-determinate distinction is a messy one to describe...so....
it is Just definitely NOT an indeterminate = determinate .

Still ....I guess there could be a spectrum of how distinctly semi-deteminate theses plants are in production window length from determinate varieties as well.