RLand PL ?

[Starlight]

I have a question, please. I been transplanting today and of course I always look at all the leaves and the root systems while doing so. Amazing how seeds all planted at same time, transplanted at same time, about same height may have weaker root systems.

I was transplanting Black Foot and I noticed I have 3 RL and 2 PL and I have one plant that first true leaves started out as a PL with a twist of the RL on the leaf. That poor plant can't make up its mind which one it is going to be.

So my question is this , kinda embarrassed to ask, but I don't know, not only for the Black Foot, but for other plants where you may get a PL instead of and RL or visa versa, will the tomatoes turn out to be what they are supposed to be or will they be different?

When you have different foliage for the same plant, do you still call it by that name or something different.

[joseph]

Some older varieties live on the wilder side of things and might manifest either trait.

Modern "stabilized/inbred" varieties will usually be one or the other, but not both. If both show up, that's an indication that the seeds were cross pollinated or mixed up before you got them.

[Starlight]

Thanks Joseph for the explanation. : ) I'll pull the ones not RL off to the side and mark them Not True, so I don't offer them as seed of Blackfoot.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Starlight

I have a question, please. I been transplanting today and of course I always look at all the leaves and the root systems while doing so. Amazing how seeds all planted at same time, transplanted at same time, about same height may have weaker root systems.

I was transplanting Black Foot and I noticed I have 3 RL and 2 PL and I have one plant that first true leaves started out as a PL with a twist of the RL on the leaf. That poor plant can't make up its mind which one it is going to be.

So my question is this , kinda embarrassed to ask, but I don't know, not only for the Black Foot, but for other plants where you may get a PL instead of and RL or visa versa, will the tomatoes turn out to be what they are supposed to be or will they be different?

When you have different foliage for the same plant, do you still call it by that name or something different.

Here's a thread from DG that debunks the history for this one being from the Black Foot Indian tribe.

And note that folks growing it are NOT getting what it was supposed to be.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/713339/#b

And note in that thread also that it was to be posted here at Tville, and probably was, but I don't have time to do a search for it here, which would be easy to do.

What was the source of your seeds and what was the description as well as any picture shown/

If it's a mixed up variety as seems to be the case, then who knows what leaf from you might get. But I will add that with quite a few varieties I've grown the initial form is PL and then RL's start appearing, which is why I never made the call on leaf form until there were at least 4-5 branches.

My first priority right now, other than dropping in here and there for a few minutes,is to get my TAX stuff prepared so someone can take it to my tax man ASAP so I'll let you do a search for it here at Tville.

Carolyn, also noting that another one that Melody, now an admin at DG had, was called Burning Spear and that one I did grow. And some were also saying that Burning Spear was Indian in origin.

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

. . . And note in that thread also that it was to be posted here at Tville, and probably was, but I don't have time to do a search for it . . .

This might be the thread about Blackfoot, here?

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=4691

Sounds like an interesting tomato.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

This might be the thread about Blackfoot, here?

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=4691

Sounds like an interesting tomato.

Thanks so much for the link and note that it started in 2006.

Carolyn

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by Starlight

. . . I was transplanting Black Foot and I noticed I have 3 RL and 2 PL and I have one plant that first true leaves started out as a PL with a twist of the RL on the leaf. That poor plant can't make up its mind which one it is going to be. . .

From the pics and discussion in the Tomatoville thread and the DG thread, I wonder whether that leaf look might be typical of this variety. Might be an idea to see how they grow before deciding whether any of them is likely "not true"?

[charline]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

If it's a mixed up variety as seems to be the case, then who knows what leaf from you might get. But I will add that with quite a few varieties I've grown the initial form is PL and then RL's start appearing, which is why I never made the call on leaf form until there were at least 4-5 branches.

.

good to know that Carolyn, I have a Microbeicum occemus seedling that has potato leaves and so there is still hope it will get regular leaves and come true.

[Gardeneer]

Some RLs might not show pronounced ridges . But the opposite (PL looking like RL =with ridges) maybe due to cross pollination.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Some RLs might not show pronounced ridges . But the opposite (PL looking like RL =with ridges) maybe due to cross pollination.

Actually there are 5 different forms of PL leaves that have been IDed, it was at a German site I once had, but the link is dead now, so it doesn't have to be something to do with X pollination.

At another site where I read and often post there has been lots of discussion and pictures showing several different PL forms, the one I've seen the most of myself is called mitten shape.

When it comes to true RL's there's also LOTS of versions and that depends on the amount of dissections on the leaf edge and how deep they are. But all true RL's do have dissected leaves as opposed to the smooth edges of PL leaves.

Carolyn

[Starlight]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

What was the source of your seeds and what was the description as well as any picture shown/

If it's a mixed up variety as seems to be the case, then who knows what leaf from you might get. But I will add that with quite a few varieties I've grown the initial form is PL and then RL's start appearing, which is why I never made the call on leaf form until there were at least 4-5 branches.

Carolyn, also noting that another one that Melody, now an admin at DG had, was called Burning Spear and that one I did grow. And some were also saying that Burning Spear was Indian in origin.

My seed are from 2010 and came from a friend who got the seeds probably from somebody on DG aways back and grew them out that year. I know the seed I have was bagged. All her seed is always bagged. Not always 100%, but usually pretty always darn close.

Originally Posted by JLJ_

This might be the thread about Blackfoot, here?

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=4691

Sounds like an interesting tomato.

Thanks for the link to the thread. Now I can see what it looks like. JLJ... I still have a few seeds if you would like to try a few Pm me your addy.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Actually there are 5 different forms of PL leaves that have been IDed, it was at a German site I once had, but the link is dead now, so it doesn't have to be something to do with X pollination.

At another site where I read and often post there has been lots of discussion and pictures showing several different PL forms, the one I've seen the most of myself is called mitten shape.

When it comes to true RL's there's also LOTS of versions and that depends on the amount of dissections on the leaf edge and how deep they are. But all true RL's do have dissected leaves as opposed to the smooth edges of PL leaves.

Carolyn

I agree, good information. Mitten leaf, a perfect description of the one I have that can't seem to make up it's mind. If the sun comes out later, maybe I can try and get a pic of my babies and the different foliage and you'll be able to tell me who is who.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Actually there are 5 different forms of PL leaves that have been IDed, it was at a German site I once had, but the link is dead now, so it doesn't have to be something to do with X pollination.

At another site where I read and often post there has been lots of discussion and pictures showing several different PL forms, the one I've seen the most of myself is called mitten shape.

When it comes to true RL's there's also LOTS of versions and that depends on the amount of dissections on the leaf edge and how deep they are. But all true RL's do have dissected leaves as opposed to the smooth edges of PL leaves.

Carolyn

Thanks Carolyn.
But then I wonder every site, (including Tania !) categorize tomatoes into PL and RL ?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Thanks Carolyn.
But then I wonder every site, (including Tania !) categorize tomatoes into PL and RL ?

Yes they do distinguiish between PL and RL as I mentioned above:

(When it comes to true RL's there's also LOTS of versions and that depends on the amount of dissections on the leaf edge and how deep they are. But all true RL's do have dissected leaves as opposed to the smooth edges of PL leaves.)

Carolyn

[JLJ_]

With regard to the name, it seems to me that it should remain Blackfoot, as it seems unlikely that clear evidence of a different known name will turn up at this point.

It is probably not connected historically with the culture of the *very* early American colonist group whose real name is not Blackfoot but which is known in English by that name.

But that doesn't mean the name someone gave this tomato was without significance.

While it's possible that this tomato's name was just someone's whim, a more likely guess would probably be that it was grown and passed on at some point by Mr./Ms. Blackfoot . . . who could have been some connection to those *very* early colonists, or whose surname could have derived from any of many possible sources.

(A common error in family history work, for example, is to assume that if a family name is a known place name, the family originated, or lived for some time, at that place. While that is possible, and a good lead for family record research, it can also happen that the family name traces back to some entirely different name, which *sounded* somewhat like a well known place name and, in an era when writing/spelling skills were not common, changed into that place name, though the family really had no connection to that place at all.)

Or perhaps this tomato was the only one that someone could grow successfully in the boggy part of their garden, so that when they tended those plants their feet were always . . .

But in any event, it seems that, somewhere along the line, the person who passed these seeds along named it Blackfoot, and surely that should be respected.

[carolyn137]

JLJ posted;

(With regard to the name, it seems to me that it should remain Blackfoot, as it seems unlikely that clear evidence of a different known name will turn up at this point. )

I just reread the thread and I didn't see anyone who suggested changing the name, rather, challenging the possible histories that have been put forward for the name in the various links given.

You suggested a number of possibilities for the origin of the name Blackfoot, but alas, no factual data to support them.

So Blackfoot it was and Blackfoot it will remain, IMO.

Carolyn