Just found a realy good Idea- very labour saving.

[michael johnson]

I just found a realy good idea- cant think how I missed it previously, In my book on organic tomato growing there is a way of compost layering in the potting up size pots, that saves lots of work transplanting etc.

I have had the book about three years and only just noticed it, it is a method I shall certainly use next season for myself at least.

Take a number of five inch pots- as many as final number of plants you may need, then fill it to the top with you very best potting on compost, - then with a dessert spoon or other suitable tool- take out a strip of compost right accross the pot- about two inches wide and the same depth,- then in this furrow fill it up with you best seed compost which is purposly low in nutrients for starting seed in- then sow each variety of tomato you require- four or five seeds straight accross the pot about 1/4 to 1/2 inch deep, then germinate as normal.

Once the seeds have germinated and reached the first real leaf stage- then pull out the surplus seedlings and leave to grow on- one seedling.

By the time the seedlings roots have found their way to the stronger potting compost below- they will be well ready for it.

No further treatment or transplanting is required- totaly missing out that part of tomato culture that is so laborious and fiddly, often with accidents and damaged seedlings.

the plants are then left to mature right through to planting out time.


I think its a cracking good idea, and well worth a try.

[Delora]

Originally Posted by michael johnson

Take a number of five inch pots- as many as final number of plants you may need, then fill it to the top with you very best potting on compost, - then with a dessert spoon or other suitable tool- take out a strip of compost right accross the pot- about two inches wide and the same depth,- then in this furrow fill it up with you best seed compost which is purposly low in nutrients for starting seed in- then sow each variety of tomato you require- four or five seeds straight accross the pot about 1/4 to 1/2 inch deep, then germinate as normal.


I think its a cracking good idea, and well worth a try.

My first thought and major concern with this method is that seed starting mix is used not only because it's low in nutrients, but also because it is sterile. If you mix it in the same pot as non-sterile mix/compost, any pathogens or micro-organisms present in that mix will infect the previously sterile seed starting mix.


-Delora

[carolyn137]

One other major concern I have is that direct seeded plants that are allowed to grow to maturity where they are sowed develop a tap root system, whereas seedlings that are transplanted at least once develop a more desirable fibrous root system.

And that's why almost all sources suggest an initial transplant, so that the larger more extensive fibrous root system is formed.

The link to that data I gave years ago at GW and it was given again just recently by someone who got it from me. it's well worth reading and remembering, I think.

[michael johnson]

Delora- I dont know what kind of potting mix you use over there in the USA, but normaly here in the UK all bought compost mixes -both seed, and potting, are sterile to start with, being sterlised with high pressure steam.


Fiberous root systems- there are two schools of thought on this- for and against, with normal methods of planting and transplanting.

But using this method I described- I would imagine that when the time came to remove the plants from their pots- to their final planting hole- be it pot or garden-or greenhouse border etc, sufficient damage to the tap root system would occur ( just like when you transplant seedlings into three inch pots ) to allow the plant to develop a fiberous root system,- but a little later than normal-when the plant is better able to stand it- having the first few weeks of its life undisturbed to develop naturaly.


I myself never have this problem-because I grow all my tomatoes in a bottomless pot system, the plant is planted in the base compost or ground, and then a nine inch black plastic bottomless pot is inserted over the plant and backfilled with a mixture of compost-loam, peat and course grit and sand- a sort of ring culture method, the plants then develop a fab root system coming out from the main stem into the top pot, the tap root goes down to find water quite deep, whilst the stem roots act as main feeder roots in the top pot- it nearly always gives me tremendous crops and much heavier weights of tomatoes than planting into borders or garden at ground level does.

[Mantis]

I use the same bottomless pot method as you Micheal and have done for years. I get more tomatoes and healthier plants than any of the plants in the ground or in normal pots. I get earlier tomatoes than anyone around me as well as the black pots heat up the mix.
I think more people should give this method a try even if only with one or two plants and see if there is any difference from their normaly planted ones.
Hope you have a great year with yours
Mantis

[carolyn137]

(No further treatment or transplanting is required- totaly missing out that part of tomato culture that is so laborious and fiddly, often with accidents and damaged seedlings.

the plants are then left to mature right through to planting out time.)

I didn't read carefully enough for you're just allowing the remaining plant to grow to good seedling size in the 5 inch pot and then transplanting to the garden.

So yes, tap root would convert to fibrous under those circumstances.

But I can't imagine anyone saying there are two schools of though re fibrous versus direct seeded tap root systems as far as plant health and growth with all the additional root surface available.

it sounds like that method would work well as long as one isn't growing hundreds and hundreds of varieties. I know that I would never have room for 5 inch pots for the 800-1000 plants that I used to grow each year.

What worked well for me was simply transplanting from a 20 row professional seed starting insert to 2 inch cells, 4 cells/pack and 8 packs/standard nursery tray, and then they were grown on in those 2 inch cells to outside planting size of about 6- 9 inches or maybe a bit more. I am not an advocate of continually potting up to larger and larger pots as it seems so many are , but each person has to discover what works best depending on space and the number of plants desired.


That's what most of the commerical farmers do and it works very well for me as well.

[michael johnson]

I find that transplanting time is the most-knackering for me, dozens of seedlings to transplant, it normaly takes me about four days sat in a hot conservatory with a large table , and beads of sweat forming on my forehead all the time- which in turn drips onto my reading-cum- transplant glasses, and every now and again I have to keep breaking off to rinse my glasses under the cold water tap to get the sweat off- otherwise I cant see a gosh darnoodley thing.

If I can dispense with all that problem- it will be a godsend to me.

Mantis- I discovered the bottomless pot method about six or seven years ago- and since that time I have never looked back, -bigger crops, sturdier plants,easier to feed,faster growth overall.

My biggest initial problem was finding the right kind of pots to start with, after a fruitless search I finaly found a lot of black plastic florists buckets- and spent a week or more cutting the bottoms out of these with strong scissors- boy- was my fingers sore afterwards.

But it was well worth it as they will last for years without replacement.

[travis]

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglib...10137ch26.html

Carolyn, is that the article on tomato root development you're speaking of? I think it's the one I saved in my favorites from the last time you recommended reading it.

PV

[gardengalrn]

This sounds like something my FIL did last year and had great success with. I think he used big coffee cans and the rims stuck up out of the dirt and inch or so. Does this sound about right?

[michael johnson]

Gardengalrn, No- in the majority of ring culture or semi ring culture methods the container is fully on top of the soil/compost medium, for its full depth.

In pure ring culture -the original method, the base medium is either ground up cinders and ashes up to two foot deep, or pea gravel and grit with a little sand added.

But not many people use that any more, and have adapted other growing mediums instead.

The idea is that the base medium is for the tomatoes pure water roots only and encourages the tap root (if any )- to search deep for water, whilst the ones in the pot are pure feeder roots- and you put all feed into the pot at the top or mixed in when you first fill the pot- topped up by weekly liquid feed in the top.

Works great- you can get as much as a 50% better crop than normal if done right, but it takes practice and time to get the best out of it.

[carolyn137]

Yes PV, that's the article on roots that I like to post and have many times.

But I'm slow to give links here b'c I have to minimize AOL to connect to IE to log on here each time I come to read/post, and just don't take the time to carry over links as perhaps I should be doing.

As I've said before, some of the most important basic information about tomatoes was done back in the 20's and 30's, before the so called "molecular" era took over. And that includes a lot of very basic info on pollination as well, whether self pollenization or X pollination.

[Catntree]

Ohhh.....

I see how it works, now. That is so different from my philosophy of amending entire plot organically....little, or no watering....etc, etc. For a small garden it sounds like fun; for 400 plants I don't think so.

Bet it gets the most out of your space.....interesting to see the innovation out there

[SelfSufficient1]

I am trying to understand this bottomless pot method you are talking about. Is there a link anywhere that shows this? I just can't quite understand what you are talking about here and would like to know so I might try it too.

[Mantis]

Simply put, you just cut the bottoms clean off some plastic pots. Placed them on the garden where you want to plant your tommys. Fill with good potting mix and tomato plant.
Here are my outside ones last spring just after planting.


Heres me some months later in the middle of them. I am 6'3"tall.

[michael johnson]

Mantis- excellent photos, with pots just like mine.

The only thing I noticed though- is that your plants still have the seed leaves showing above the surface of the pot soil- you are not getting them deep enough to benefit the best from them.

What you have to do is break off the seed leaves plus one or two main leaves to give about 9" inches of clear stem, then plant the plants into the base soil first- then lower the bottomless pot over them carefully folding the leaves inwards as you go, then back fill the pots slowly with a gritty, sandy, peaty medium, with added loam top soil, and firm down with the stem in the middle. to within 1/2 an inch of the pot rim, then feed in the pot with liquid feed or granulated as you prefer.

If you plant them like this- feeder roots will grow out from the bare bit of main stem buried in the pot for the full eight or nine inches of it, until they nearly fill the pot- and the main roots at the bottom of the plant will continue to grow as normal - searching for water.

So -its plain water only at the base roots, and around the pot base, liquid feed or granulated in the pot top.

The crop size and plant health are nearly doubled by this method.

But -if I were you I would try a comparison test- do half the plants the way you normaly do and the other half with them buried a bit deeper as I suggested- and note the difference.


If you dont have plants that are tall enough at the time of planting- to give nine inches of bare stem to the top of the pot- it is easy enough to plant them into the base soil- then simply lower the bottomless pot over them and wait a few days or a couple of weeks and the plant will lengthen to suit the pot.