To Till or Not To Till?

AlittleSalt · March 28, 2015

I'm working on a raised bed. It is 18' x 60'. We built a frame out of real 1 x 4"s. The soil under the fame is red clay that had Johnson Grass and other annoying thick weeds growing in it. (It was very hard to mow) Part of the reason for this raised bed is to get rid of the Johnson Grass.

Back in February, I burned off this area. Then, as time and weather allowed, my son moved loam soil into the frame. So, right now, there is four inches of loam mixed with oak leaves sitting on top of the clay soil. This brings up my question:

If this bed was yours, would you till the soil deep enough to incorporate some of the clay soil? or leave it like it is?

Cole_Robbie · March 28, 2015

Mixing in the leaves with the soil you added may not have been the best idea. Maybe it won't matter, though.

I don't think your roots are going to penetrate the clay. I think they will just grow sideways in the soft soil you added. Building up that 4" with manure and other organic matter should be a top priority.

As for tilling, everyone's soil is different. Mine is fine to till several inches down, as long as I add about the same corresponding amount of manure on top. If you do till, all you have to do is keep the top mulched with something like wood chips, and then you won't have to till again. Even black plastic mulch will do the same thing; the soil under mine when I pick it up is always nice and soft. The rain doesn't hit it to compact it.

Stvrob · March 28, 2015

I would be concerned about tilling through the clay, now that it has soil above it it might remain perpetually too moist to work.

snugglekitten · March 28, 2015

Till the first year, but only if its necessary. after that tillage is counter productive.

Worth1 · March 28, 2015

DO NOT TILL INTO THAT RED CLAY!!!!!!!
That Johnson grass spreads by seeds and rhizomes.
All you will do is make it worse.
They should dig that Johnson guy up and toss him in the ocean for bringing this stuff over here from Turkey.

The best you can do is mulch the bed and every time you see a blade come up cut it off.

I frigging hate the stuff.

I am slowly but surly getting rid of mine.

Worth

Redbaron · March 28, 2015

Let the worms do your tilling. Of course that means it is important to keep the worms fed and the habitat for them comfortable. But I agree somewhat with snugglekitten. There are cases when a 1 time tilling is fine. I personally wouldn't, but everyone's situation varies. Tilling in some organic material then adding some worms and compost and mulch on top may in some cases help to "kick start" the garden. Then no till after. Cases where that would be a benefit include soils with a bad compaction layer or stubborn hard pan where biological methods of regenerating soil is difficult. But doing it year after year would only make the hard pan worse over time. You could even double dig 1 year and mix large quantities of organic matter very deep. Lots of work and lots of compost/ manure inputs needed. But that kind of "kick start" can be helpful sometimes.

PS: Worth is right. Johnsongrass is a tough one. If you do double dig or till it. I recommend screening the soil to remove absolutely as much as possible.

Cole_Robbie · March 28, 2015

I have Johnson Grass so bad that the roots look like crab legs off the Chinese Buffet:
http://i.imgur.com/AlamQPL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BJCTWXi.jpg

They are kinda pretty.

Worth1 · March 28, 2015

I got rid of a bunch of mine by digging it up during a drought and letting the roots lay in the sun.
It was back when every day was way over 100F.

Worth

snugglekitten · March 28, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redbaron

Let the worms do your tilling. Of course that means it is important to keep the worms fed and the habitat for them comfortable. But I agree somewhat with snugglekitten. There are cases when a 1 time tilling is fine. I personally wouldn't, but everyone's situation varies. Tilling in some organic material then adding some worms and compost and mulch on top may in some cases help to "kick start" the garden. Then no till after. Cases where that would be a benefit include soils with a bad compaction layer or stubborn hard pan where biological methods of regenerating soil is difficult. But doing it year after year would only make the hard pan worse over time. You could even double dig 1 year and mix large quantities of organic matter very deep. Lots of work and lots of compost/ manure inputs needed. But that kind of "kick start" can be helpful sometimes.

PS: Worth is right. Johnsongrass is a tough one. If you do double dig or till it. I recommend screening the soil to remove absolutely as much as possible.

You have to till once if you are in some godforsaken rocky, rooty area, but after that its like praying for rain, actually worse.

This is a good paper on the topic and will do justice until I can remember the name of the "father of no-till" guy and his book, better than the skinny Japanese feller.

AlittleSalt · March 28, 2015

I remember reading somewhere online about Johnson Grass being prohibited in some states. The following link isn't where I read that, but it does agree with that lost link: https://www.gri.msstate.edu/ipams/sp...e=Johnsongrass

" Regulations
Johnsongrass is Noxious in Arkansas, California, Delaware, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, Nevada, Pennsylvania, Utah, and West Virginia. It is a C List noxious weed in California and Colorado, a “B” designated weed in Oregon, and Class A noxious weed in Washington. It is prohibited in Ohio, quarantined in Oregon and Washington. Johnsongrass is regulated as a non-native plant species in South Dakota. It can be problematic in all MidSouth states, especially on roadsides."

snugglekitten · March 28, 2015

Update on the author, Faulkner, Plowman’s Folly. My favorite Ag book.

whistech · March 28, 2015

How deep is the soil your son put in the raised bed? If it were mine, I would not till the soil now. Doing so will cause more Johnson Grass that you can imagine. This fall I would sow the entire bed with tillage radishes. They will grow into the clay, and when rotted, they will supply the bed with some good organic matter. I am not an organic gardener, but tillage radishes help the soil.

AlittleSalt · March 28, 2015

The soil he put in the garden is at least 4 inches deep in most of the garden. On the back side of the garden, the added loam soil is 10 inches deep. It's that deep to fill an old dry-wash area. We added a drainage ditch that diverts the rainwater from this area now.

Guys, I agree with all of you on not tilling into the clay. Actually, I'm not going to till at all. The soil was spread out in the garden today and the last 11 x 18 feet tomorrow or
Monday.

The 4 inch boards are temporary. We will be replacing them this winter with cut stone. We needed a place to plant vegetables that need to be planted now. The boards were faster, and the stone are at the back of our property where the clay is too wet to drive the tractor on right now.

Thank you for your opinions and advice,
Robert

March 28, 2015	#1
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	To Till or Not To Till? I'm working on a raised bed. It is 18' x 60'. We built a frame out of real 1 x 4"s. The soil under the fame is red clay that had Johnson Grass and other annoying thick weeds growing in it. (It was very hard to mow) Part of the reason for this raised bed is to get rid of the Johnson Grass. Back in February, I burned off this area. Then, as time and weather allowed, my son moved loam soil into the frame. So, right now, there is four inches of loam mixed with oak leaves sitting on top of the clay soil. This brings up my question: If this bed was yours, would you till the soil deep enough to incorporate some of the clay soil? or leave it like it is?

March 28, 2015	#6
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	Let the worms do your tilling. Of course that means it is important to keep the worms fed and the habitat for them comfortable. But I agree somewhat with snugglekitten. There are cases when a 1 time tilling is fine. I personally wouldn't, but everyone's situation varies. Tilling in some organic material then adding some worms and compost and mulch on top may in some cases help to "kick start" the garden. Then no till after. Cases where that would be a benefit include soils with a bad compaction layer or stubborn hard pan where biological methods of regenerating soil is difficult. But doing it year after year would only make the hard pan worse over time. You could even double dig 1 year and mix large quantities of organic matter very deep. Lots of work and lots of compost/ manure inputs needed. But that kind of "kick start" can be helpful sometimes. PS: Worth is right. Johnsongrass is a tough one. If you do double dig or till it. I recommend screening the soil to remove absolutely as much as possible. __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture Last edited by Redbaron; March 28, 2015 at 05:25 PM.

March 28, 2015	#2
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	Mixing in the leaves with the soil you added may not have been the best idea. Maybe it won't matter, though. I don't think your roots are going to penetrate the clay. I think they will just grow sideways in the soft soil you added. Building up that 4" with manure and other organic matter should be a top priority. As for tilling, everyone's soil is different. Mine is fine to till several inches down, as long as I add about the same corresponding amount of manure on top. If you do till, all you have to do is keep the top mulched with something like wood chips, and then you won't have to till again. Even black plastic mulch will do the same thing; the soil under mine when I pick it up is always nice and soft. The rain doesn't hit it to compact it.

March 28, 2015	#3
Stvrob Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,413	I would be concerned about tilling through the clay, now that it has soil above it it might remain perpetually too moist to work.

March 28, 2015	#4
snugglekitten BANNED Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Land of the White Eagle Posts: 341	Till the first year, but only if its necessary. after that tillage is counter productive.

March 28, 2015	#5
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	DO NOT TILL INTO THAT RED CLAY!!!!!!! That Johnson grass spreads by seeds and rhizomes. All you will do is make it worse. They should dig that Johnson guy up and toss him in the ocean for bringing this stuff over here from Turkey. The best you can do is mulch the bed and every time you see a blade come up cut it off. I frigging hate the stuff. I am slowly but surly getting rid of mine. Worth

March 28, 2015	#12
whistech Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Between The Woodlands and Spring, Texas Posts: 553	How deep is the soil your son put in the raised bed? If it were mine, I would not till the soil now. Doing so will cause more Johnson Grass that you can imagine. This fall I would sow the entire bed with tillage radishes. They will grow into the clay, and when rotted, they will supply the bed with some good organic matter. I am not an organic gardener, but tillage radishes help the soil.