Some

[Jeffery_Goss]

"varieties" are actually polyphyletic



It turns out that several popular tomato varieties are polyphyletic. That is to say, they have a wide variation and may come from different sources. Some are landraces; others are just CV's that got out of hand genetically, or those whose names became so popular that they were co-opted by similar-looking or similar-tasting strains.

Some polyphyletic tomato categories include:

Brandywine/Mikado (from Mexico to England to USA, all in a period of 20 years in the late 1800s; there were so many offshoot strain that Brandywine simply became a descriptive term for tomatoes that fit a certain profile, rather than a documented line of ancestry)

Mortgage Lifter (definitely polyphyletic--at least two, possibly three, original sources including Radiator Charlie)

Hillbilly (a landrace from WV and southeast Ohio, west of the Appalachians; accessed and stabilized many times, each time into a slightly different strain with the same name)

Cherokee Purple (has a lot of offshoot strains but is not exactly polyphyletic, since all came from same original accession from landrace, as far as I know)

Cherry (there are many types of cherry tomatoes, but when simply labelled "Cherry" they are being described in a polyphyletic way)

Siberian (except when it clearly refers to the variety properly called by the simple name of Siberian)

Big Ben (the name was co-opted)

Traveler/Arkansas Traveler (name was co-opted at least once, possible twice or thrice)

Abraham Lincoln (not exactly polyphyletic since they all come from same source, but a lot of breeding work has been performed on it, and it has diverged into several homonymous strains)

Akers (same situation as above)

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Jeffery_Goss

"varieties" are actually polyphyletic



It turns out that several popular tomato varieties are polyphyletic. That is to say, they have a wide variation and may come from different sources. Some are landraces; others are just CV's that got out of hand genetically, or those whose names became so popular that they were co-opted by similar-looking or similar-tasting strains.

Some polyphyletic tomato categories include:

Brandywine/Mikado (from Mexico to England to USA, all in a period of 20 years in the late 1800s; there were so many offshoot strain that Brandywine simply became a descriptive term for tomatoes that fit a certain profile, rather than a documented line of ancestry)

Mortgage Lifter (definitely polyphyletic--at least two, possibly three, original sources including Radiator Charlie)

Hillbilly (a landrace from WV and southeast Ohio, west of the Appalachians; accessed and stabilized many times, each time into a slightly different strain with the same name)

Cherokee Purple (has a lot of offshoot strains but is not exactly polyphyletic, since all came from same original accession from landrace, as far as I know)

Cherry (there are many types of cherry tomatoes, but when simply labelled "Cherry" they are being described in a polyphyletic way)

Siberian (except when it clearly refers to the variety properly called by the simple name of Siberian)

Big Ben (the name was co-opted)

Traveler/Arkansas Traveler (name was co-opted at least once, possible twice or thrice)

Abraham Lincoln (not exactly polyphyletic since they all come from same source, but a lot of breeding work has been performed on it, and it has diverged into several homonymous strains)

Akers (same situation as above)

At another website Jeffery post the same as here. In my first response I asked what his definition of landrace was and then explained my definition which refers to the work done with Ethiopian Wheat and various rices which indicated that thousands of years were involved in altering a single variety.

I then answered his more specific post above with the following post, cut and pasted from that other message site:

I think a definition about what polyphyly means would be good to start with Jeffery. The most common definition from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphyly

It speaks to all members being descended from a COMMON ancestor and since there is no one common ancestor known for ALL tomatoes, there are now about 12 different species, I think it makes it hard to speak of polyphyly with tomatoes. And there are quite a few links at Google referring to polyphyly of tomatoes; most of it not easy reading.

In the other post I just did I spoke to what a definition of landrace might be, so won't repeat that here.


Jeffery wrote:
winter_unfazed;399940]It turns out that several popular tomato varieties are polyphyletic. That is to say, they have a wide variation and may come from different sources. Some are landraces; others are just CV's that got out of hand genetically, or those whose names became so popular that they were co-opted by similar-looking or similar-tasting strains.

Some polyphyletic tomato categories include:

(Brandywine/Mikado (from Mexico to England to USA, all in a period of 20 years in the late 1800s; there were so many offshoot strain that Brandywine simply became a descriptive term for tomatoes that fit a certain profile, rather than a documented line of ancestry))

I've not seen Mikado, which I've grown,first offered by Burpee, as being from Mexico. And there are many other contenders for Brandywine as well, in terms of an origin. Most believe that the original Brandywine was named for the Brandywine river in PA. There's an excellent history about Brandywines written by Craig LeHoullier that's at Victory Seeds.

(Mortgage Lifter (definitely polyphyletic--at least two, possibly three, original sources including Radiator Charlie)

I know of two sources who claim to have developed Mortgage Lifter; Charlie Byles and the Estler family earlier than that.. All other ML's have persons names attached to them and are probably the Radiator Charlie one as grown by someone b'c that one got the most PR. Only the Mullens strain is different since it's a mutation that led to pale foliage. So all I see is two claims as to who developed Mortgage Lifter first, the Estlers or Charlie Byles.

(Hillbilly (a landrace from WV and southeast Ohio, west of the Appalachians; accessed and stabilized many times, each time into a slightly different strain with the same name)

The gold/red color beefsteaks are known to have arisen probably in Germany and nearby and came to this country with immigrants from that area. There are what, maybe 100 plus of them listed in the SSE YEarbooks and all have the same general look to them, with few exceptions, but not tastes and other traits. I don't see them as landraces, I see them as being gold/red bicolors that got different names as grown by different folks in different areas. So yes, a lot of redundancy which could only be proved by DNA analysis.

Cherokee Purple (has a lot of offshoot strains but is not exactly polyphyletic, since all came from same original accession from landrace, as far as I know)

Not a land race as I see it and dark colored tomatoes were known way back in the 1800's. I don't know of any strains except possibly Indian Stripe, and I don't see them as landraces either. What we know as CC and CG were all mutations from the CP that Craig LeHoullier got from John Green of TN. I don't think anyone knows exactly where or when the Cherokee started growing this variety, except on the East Coast before the migration to Oklahoma. And it was just John Green who said they were grown by the Cherokee but finding Indian Stripe in Arkansas does suggest that the Cherokee might be the original source since one the trails on the migration went thru the northern part or AR.

Cherry (there are many types of cherry tomatoes, but when simply labelled "Cherry" they are being described in a polyphyletic way)

Sorry, but I'm not quite understanding what you're saying here. Is there a common ancestor involved? Maybe, maybe not. Small fruit size is dominant to large fruit size, so it's really hard to tell.

Siberian (except when it clearly refers to the variety properly called by the simple name of Siberian)

I'm not following you here either, sorry. There are lots of varieties that are known to come from Siberia but they are as different as can be. The only two off hand that I can think of that have one word names are the Siberian you mentioned and the variety Siberia, both small reds, but varieties of all colors and shapes and sizes are known to have come from that region such as Mother Russia, Sasha's Altai, Olga's Round Yellow Chicken and on and on.

Big Ben (the name was co-opted)

?????????? yes, confusion with Stump of the World and maybe Brandywine if that's what you're referring to. But co-opted?

Traveler/Arkansas Traveler (name was co-opted at least once, possible twice or thrice)

Traveler was bred by the U of Arkansas and named Traveler and some folks just added the word Arkansas to it to indicate the source. Traveler 76 was also bred by the U of Arkansas and released a few years after Traveler but no one attached the word Arkansas to that one.

Abraham Lincoln (not exactly polyphyletic since they all come from same source, but a lot of breeding work has been performed on it, and it has diverged into several homonymous strains)

The variety Abraham Lincoln and all it's OP and so called hybrid versions is a true mess these days, that's all I can say. The original was bred by Buckbee's of IL in 1923 and named for Illinois's most well known person. I don't know if we're dealing with strains when I think both F1 and OP versions now exist. Same thing with the variety Goliath as to OP and F1 versions.

Akers (same situation as above)

Do you mean Aker's West Virginia? I know that variety only as a variety that was given to Craig LeHoullier by Carl Aker. I don't think I know of a variety just called Akers.


Carolyn, who does have a hobby of looking into OP tomato variety histories and always has b'c she finds them so very interesting. Keeps her off the streets and out of the woods and out of trouble, well, most of the time.

[Jeffery_Goss]

Cherokee Purple

Not a land race as I see it and dark colored tomatoes were known way back in the 1800's. I don't know of any strains except possibly Indian Stripe, and I don't see them as landraces either. What we know as CC and CG were all mutations from the CP that Craig LeHoullier got from John Green of TN. I don't think anyone knows exactly where or when the Cherokee started growing this variety, except on the East Coast before the migration to Oklahoma. And it was just John Green who said they were grown by the Cherokee but finding Indian Stripe in Arkansas does suggest that the Cherokee might be the original source since one the trails on the migration went thru the northern part or AR.

Other strains include 'CP Potato Leaf' (independently discovered three times, once by MO GE J, once by another Seed Saver, and once by...well, I forget).

Cherry

Sorry, but I'm not quite understanding what you're saying here. Is there a common ancestor involved? Maybe, maybe not. Small fruit size is dominant to large fruit size, so it's really hard to tell.

There is no common single ancestor variety to all cherry tomatoes; that is what I mean by polyphyletic.

Siberian
I'm not following you here either, sorry. There are lots of varieties that are known to come from Siberia but they are as different as can be. The only two off hand that I can think of that have one word names are the Siberian you mentioned and the variety Siberia, both small reds, but varieties of all colors and shapes and sizes are known to have come from that region such as Mother Russia, Sasha's Altai, Olga's Round Yellow Chicken and on and on.

I'm talking about the strains with Siberian in the name. Like, Siberian and Siberian Quicksing and Siberian Pink and Siberian Bushy and Big's Red Siberian and Siberian Dwarf and so on.

Traveler was bred by the U of Arkansas and named Traveler and some folks just added the word Arkansas to it to indicate the source. Traveler 76 was also bred by the U of Arkansas and released a few years after Traveler but no one attached the word Arkansas to that one.

Arkansas Traveler was a 19th-century heirloom. It seemed to disappear during the Depression/Dustbowl era. In 1970, the U. of Ark. resurrected the name Traveler and used it for a new variety. They were careful not to include the word Arkansas, but other people stuck it in anyway. And where is the real, old, original Arkansas Traveler heirloom? Possibly extinct, but even if it does still exist, nobody would realize it, because the name is now associated with the U of Ark variety.

Do you mean Aker's West Virginia? I know that variety only as a variety that was given to Craig LeHoullier by Carl Aker. I don't think I know of a variety just called Akers.

Aker's West Virginia is the full and proper name, but other sources (and possibly variant strains) are called Acker's, Akers, and Aker's.

[nctomatoman]

I'll take a broader, higher level view on this. Interesting topic, by the way.

My feeling is that any OP variety that has been around for a reasonable amount of time (and has been seed saved and traded/exchanged through seed saving groups) has potential genetic variability, in some cases potentially quite extreme. Breaking it into categories by variety (Mikado, Cherokee Purple, etc) is just overcomplicating the issue, I think. After growing out hundreds of varieties obtained through the USDA that have historical catalog descriptions, it is very clear how chance crossing has impacted purity of many of them....and even claiming that the Favorite I grew out a few years ago is the Favorite that Livingston produced in the 1880s is speculation without having genetic testing/matching of his/recent seeds.

A few specific comments - Brandywine was used far less back then than Turner's Hybrid/Mikado for the large pink potato leaf variety released by Burpee (Turner's) and Henderson (Mikado) in the 1880s. Brandywine as a term only appeared in a very few Johnson and Stokes catalogs and I've still yet to see a description of color and leaf shape (hence my feeling that it is likely more what we know of today as Red Brandywine - red and RL and medium sized); it was compared back then to varieties such as Matchless and Paragon (which are red and RL and medium sized).

Also want to add that I've got a few tomato growout research periodicals from the 1880s, work done at Michigan State where every few years they grew out as many named varieties as they could find to compare. They speak frequently of varieties "running out" (what they meant was that either through crossing or mix up, they were highly variable or quite different from the descriptions or previous years' results), and also speak of different named varieties clearly being the same tomato, but got different names because this or that company wanted a "new variety" or exclusive". Very interesting reading. The data tables that show average fruit size is very telling, in that the vast majority of tomatoes available in the 1870-1900 time frame averaged 3 to 4 ounces; very few grew to the size of what we see with many of the heirloom varieties we grow today.

[carolyn137]

I had asked Jeffery his definitionm of landrace and this is what he posted elsewhere:


By landrace, I mean a variety that:

a) Has a lot of genetic variation, but is recognizable by certain typical traits,

b) Is widely grown in a particular region, and has a long history there (100-200 generations or more),

c) Has never undergone an intensive program of artificial selection.
By landrace, I mean a variety that:

a) Has a lot of genetic variation, but is recognizable by certain typical traits,

b) Is widely grown in a particular region, and has a long history there (100-200 generations or more),

c) Has never undergone an intensive program of artificial selection.

,,, to which one person posted.....doesn't that rule out tomatoes on all three counts?

To which I tend to agree.

Lots of DNA analyses have shown the lack of genetic diversity ( variation) and much has been said about tomatoes being in a genetic bottleneck and that outcrossomg with other tomato species should be looked at more closely.

Tomatoes aren't grown widely in one particular region, they're grown in many countries around the world with no specific limitation on varieties said to be from this or that area. I'm not sure how to comment on the 100-200 generation number b'c I don't know exactly how to equate it with a tomato generation time, which, if looked at directly, could mean a couple of generations in one year depending on where grown,

As regards the last comment, it's been estimated that about 95% of all OP varieties arose from natural cross pollination and genetic stabilization to the OP state and the remaining 5% would be from mutation of an existing variety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landrace

Above is just one of many discussions about landraces.There are many more to be found via Google. I was going to link to that Ethiopian Wheat example I've mentioned several times but decided to go with just the above.