Soil Preparation - calling on nctomatoman and others

Bill Johnson · February 22, 2006

Here goes with the first post. I've been gardening for several years and have struggled with poor soil conditions for the whole duration of my gardening experiance. I'm curious to hear how others prepare their soil for planting each year. I called on nctomatoman because I have read where he grows plants in soil that has fusarium and yet I see where he has spectacular results from the photos on his website. Craig, would you mind detailing how you prepare your soil such as how much compost, amendments, etc. do you add to your soil for each plant? Any fertilizing schedule during the course of the year, and what do you use?

Would love to hear from others with difficult soil growing conditions as well.

Thanks in advance,
Bill

Rena · February 22, 2006

I do not even have soil, I have HARD RED CLAY. I gave up and built raised beds and container garden. We live on a hill so that is also a challege.-Rena

**nctomatoman** · February 22, 2006

Well, I will do what I can to explain it, but it is not all that impressive....or scientific....or even spectacularly successful. it does, however, allow me to get enough fruit to eat and try out various varieties.

My 50 by 35 foot plot used to be the lawn on my side yard that I tilled when we moved in 13 years ago. It gently slopes front to back, had some spots that do not drain well at all. I don't rotate - tomatoes have occupied this space for 13 years now. For quite a few years I mixed fresh soilless mix and composted cow manure into the planting holes. Last year I just planted right into the soil with no amendments.

Last year was also quite successful - I had someone come in and till up my soil; I then used a shovel to create raised rows, (something I once did - tends to alleviate the poor drainage problems), about 12 inches above the walking rows. I dig a hole, plant the seedling as deep as I can, dig a hole behind to drive in an 8 foot stake - use a few tbsp of a granular slow release, and a few tbsp slow release lime. I mulch around the plants very well with grass clippings - it is very important to keep the soil off of the foliage. That's it - I water only when absolutely necessary - the heavy clay soil keeps moisture very well - even in our drought last summer, I watered my main garden plants only a couple of times!

Because the sun exposure is substandard (about 5-6 hours direct sun per day), my plants stretch - so are quite tall for the yield they give. My 20-40 pounds per plant achieved in Pennsylvania in a much better sun exposure and soil type varies widely here, from 5-20 pounds per plant - but when you are growing 100 plants, that is fine with me!

I found that the dry conditions this summer appeared to head off widespread fusarium attack - even in September and October, many varieties were looking surprisingly good.

So, to summarize - a few key success procedures for me are: mulching heavily with grass clippings to keep soil off of the foliage, staking to keep plants upright and off of the soil, fertilizing only minimally, planting in raised rows to ensure that the roots don't drown when we get the gully washers - the electric deer fence, of course! that's about it. nothing really too magical.

Tomstrees · February 22, 2006

I have a large compost bin that I fill throughout the off and growing season.

In the fall, I dig 12+ inches below my garden and fill it with the contents of the entire compost and cover it back up.

I let mr. winter and worms do their thing while I go nuts over the winter trading - and then in the spring, I do some light soil work and smooth out any bumps.

I am gardening in a spot that used to occupy a large oak tree stump that consisted of mostly clay and sand.
What I've been doing is adding and adding my bin over the past few years and the soil just keeps getting better and better.
I probably have over 2+ feet of really great soil now.

Tom

TomatoDon · February 22, 2006

Raised beds will solve all your problems. If you have poor soil conditions, you will fight it for years and never get it right, the way you want it. With raised beds you can have the best garden soil/conditions in the world with one day of good work.

I wasted a lot of time and a lot of money trying to make bad soil good. You can't imagine how much time, money, and work--and the sheer volume of "topsoil"-- it will take to properly amend a garden spot. To get it right, you might as well hire a backhoe, dig it all out two feet deep and fill it back with compost. You are talking about an enormous job to get it right. I've seen people try adding a little here and there each year, and unless they are really aggressive with it, they never get it right. They spend more time working on soil that working with tomatoes. They could accomplish more in one day of building raised beds than they can in years of trying amend soil. Trust me. I made that mistake, and always tell others not to do what I did.

Build some nice raised beds. 12' X 4' X 12-24" deep is a good size. The deeper, the better. Fill it with rich compost or soilless mix, and you're in business instantly.

I put off building raised beds for years. After 78 of 82 tomato plants drowned one year I built raised beds, and never had that trouble again. And every year when I plant, I dig the holes extra big, and sweeten it with new soilless mix to help with nematode and other problems, and to give the plant as much as I can determine of the good stuff to super charge it, and give the plant brand new and rich soil to boost it off and keep it thriving.

I'm pretty new to this game, in a serious way, and that's why I ask so many questions. But I don't think a tomato grower can do better than having good raised beds, filling them with good compost or soilless mix, and filling the planting hole with new compost each year.

Many may disagree with me, but I also add a 2" diameter X 16-24" inch PVC pipe to the planting hole. I water the plants this way. It keeps water off the leaves, and puts the water, and soluable fertilizer and other nutrients right at the roots. I fill the pipe, and let it run over, so I am watering from the top and the bottom.

Mulching with sheets of newspaper, covered with wheat straw is a good way to keep down weeds, control extreme heat, stabilize moisture, and it looks good to boot. Raised beds are also more attractive, in my opinion, than the regular way. I just don't think you can top it.

It's a fun game. Maybe one day I will get good at it. I've made every mistake known to man, but at least I'm eliminating some of that now, and am with the right people here to learn how to do it the right way. Other than building raised beds, the best thing a tomato enthusiast can do is come here, watch, listen, learn, ask, and participate. I guarantee it.

Don

KCMO_Don · February 22, 2006

I do something very similar.
I have built single row raised beds for my plants that run North to South, so they get a FULL day of sun. These beds are on a mound already so drainage is good.
They are 40 feet long, 2 feet wide, 1 foot tall, but I dug out 12-18 inches under the beds.
To those empty dugout beds I added a LOT of shredded dry leaves, horse manure, several hundred pounds of mostly finished homemade compost. We are a vegetarian family so our kitchen waste is substancial (that goes in).
I then add the original soil back in, and hit it all with the tiller and cover with breathable black landscaping fabric. I moisten and turn about every 10 days.
I was cursed with CLAY, but now I cannot turn one spade of soil without SCADS of earthworms of all stages of developement.
This is my first year growing in these beds. Last year I had a great crop, but I am expecting GREAT things this season!

PaulF · February 22, 2006

All of the tips are very good ones to pay attention to. Having gone through a change of residence, my garden space went from the best in the world to not very good. The single most important thing I did was have a soil test done to pinpoint my current soil conditions and what was needed to bring my soil to optimum condition. What I would have done was not exactly what my soil needed. It was pretty easy and cheap....$10 well spent.

Adenn1 · February 23, 2006

My garden bed for tomatoes was started two years ago...it was part of the yard and you only had to go 2-3" down to hit hard gray clay...clay as far as I could dig by hand.

I did a good amount of reading and research and decided not to take the time and effort to rent a big tiller. I went with a lasagna-gardening approach. Covered the area (grass) with several wet sheets of newspaper...then over the next several months I added layers of grass clippings, shredded leaves, coffee grounds, kitchen scrapes and free leaf compost. The bed sat for about seven months before I used it last spring to plant tomatoes. I found that earth worms had moved in and had done a good amount of aerating of the clay soil. I simply dug 10" in diameter holes...about 12" deep and back filled with a mixture of the material from the hole...amended with some leaf compost.

I had covered the area about three weeks prior to planting (May 21st) with black weed fabric to warm the bed...this really seemed to help and got the plants off to a great start. I continued to add matererial around the plants during the season...particularly grass clippings...this kept the weeds down. I did not have to water much...even during dry spells as the clay soil did hold moisture pretty well.

At the end of the season, I removed all of the tomatoes and lightly turned the material over in the bed...then started layering grass clippings, leaves, compost, etc.

This worked well for me...hope it helps others.

MsCowpea · February 23, 2006

I agree with Paul about importance of soil test. You can't go wrong adding compost but you may not need to add lime.

I was introduced to soil testing in an organic gardening class where we used the book HOW TO GROW MORE VEGETABLES by John Jeavons.

I add lots of organic matter and grow cover crops in my raised beds but my soil tests are always highly alkaline (think that may be true where you are too).

Plus the test showed very low in potassium and low boron--would never have known without the test. Basic test starts around $10 (I get a more complete one so it is around $20). (In my brand new beds the test showed very poor in everything. )

For those prices you tell them what you want to grow and they even give you recommendations. What kind of fert. and how much to use. I take their figures and usually substitute organic fert.
I use A and L Lab. because they have offices all over the country.

http://www.al-labs-west.com/index.html
http://www.al-labs-west.com/SoilTesting.htm

JerryL · February 23, 2006

I didn’t have much of a choice but to build terraced raised beds due to the contour of my land. Read hilly.

They started out a combination of good old Southwestern Ohio clay and some compost I had. Each year I add a pile of this stuff. Read free horse stuff.

After about 6 years I now have soil I’d put up against Victory Garden soil.

Tomstrees · February 23, 2006

Jerry,

Your mater patch is ? awwweeeesome ~ wow , that this is great ! Nice job ! ~ Tom

TomatoDon · February 23, 2006

Really nice looking beds you have there, Jerry. Very nice tomato patch.

An older man, now living in Alabama, has a book out, something like Growing World Record Tomatoes. Fascinating book. He grows them so tall he has to build scaffolds to reach the top. Claims to produce hundreds of pounds of tomatoes on each vine, and has set some world records. I think he grew a cherry to 27 feet. He says the best compost is started with piles of kudzu vines. Boy, we have plenty of that here. Maybe it is just something about kudzu that helps the tilth. Can't imagine what nutrition it has.

I think the stuff that comes from cleaning out a barn is about as good as it gets. All the good stuff is in that.

Do many of you add sand to your beds? I have, in limited amounts, and I also am sure to mix in a little of good ole Mother Earth top soil. I think it helps.

One other thing I will mention, which was brought to my attention in another post. I was discussing raised beds, and to dig down in the bed and replace that (clay) with compost. Someone reminded me that if you have clay-ey water-holding soil, that you are just digging a mudhole. Correct. My beds are nearly 12 inches tall, and I'm thinking about adding another stack on top this season to make them 24" deep.

I started out growing tomatoes like a farmer. I used a tractor and a post hole auger, a disk, and so on. It was as big and cumbersome as it gets. I also got the top of the line Toro 10 HP tiller. Then I changed. The first major thing I did right was to build raised beds. The next good thing I did was fill them with loose soilles mix. It was usually a combination of bagged potting soil, peat, cow manure, and rich top soil. We have a junk dealer here that gets in all sorts of stuff, and I was buying 40 pound bags of any mix I wanted for a dollar each. Then, I was also adding some sand and regular dirt. The ginner here sent me two dump truck loads of gin trash. Great stuff. The next good thing I did was get a small, 20 pound Stihl tiller. It goes down about 9 inches, and is a wonderful little thing. Perfect for the way I now do it. In the meantime I was buying all the books, quizing tomato growers around town, visiting gardens, and asking what many thought to be too many questions. But it paid off. The next good thing I did in my quest to be a good gardener was to come here. This is where the real ones are. Watch, listen, ask, and participate.

Many may disagree, but I've always heard about rotating crops. Tomatoes in the same spot each year seem to bring on disease problems. But I try to get around that by digging the planting hole extra big, and filling it with new bagged soilless mix. An older friend of mine had a father who was a truck patcher. He said depth didn't matter as much as width, and his father would dig a hole you could set a wash tub in. The roots went out, rather that burrowing down. Sounds reasonable, and I've tried to adopt that.

This year each hole will get new mix, natural fertilizer, a spray of seaweed solution, an egg shell, a dash of green sand, and some Epsom Salts. All are said to be beneficial, and I can't see how any of it could hurt.

You just can't beat raised beds, rich loose compost (or the bagged equivelent), and the basic principles of Square Foot Gardening for production.

That's my two cents worth on it anyway... :wink:

Don

Miss_Mudcat · February 23, 2006

Last year was our first year to garden in this location. We have clay soil, so I purchased a dump-truck load of sand, and will do so again this year.

RE: Clay soil... the BANE of all gardeners. Am I the only one who is grateful for my clay???

It is very rich and all those nutrients become available with the addition of compost. Tho' I've not had it tested, there are particular weeds that flourish here which indicates the richness, and I save a lot on fertilizer.

Lisa

TomatoDon · February 23, 2006

Right Lisa, and that's why I add a little of ole Mother Earth to the bed. It just has some things in it that plants need. They can't thrive in a clay bed, but a little clay mixed in with the rest seems to help. Sand, too. A little.

D

Rena · February 23, 2006

I do not know if you guys really know what I am talking about when I say RED clay. They make bricks here. I could dig down and make a clay bowl LOL.
I live on a huge hill, so we took and dug out actually beds into the hill. There are 3 of those. It actually looks like wooden pies pieces cut into the side of the hill. Below these I have wooden beds terraced on the side of the hill. This year I have 9 new cedar beds for the only flat area. I should take a pic it is extreme gardening. -Rena

February 22, 2006	#1
Bill Johnson Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 2	Soil Preparation - calling on nctomatoman and others Here goes with the first post. I've been gardening for several years and have struggled with poor soil conditions for the whole duration of my gardening experiance. I'm curious to hear how others prepare their soil for planting each year. I called on nctomatoman because I have read where he grows plants in soil that has fusarium and yet I see where he has spectacular results from the photos on his website. Craig, would you mind detailing how you prepare your soil such as how much compost, amendments, etc. do you add to your soil for each plant? Any fertilizing schedule during the course of the year, and what do you use? Would love to hear from others with difficult soil growing conditions as well. Thanks in advance, Bill

February 22, 2006	#3
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Well, I will do what I can to explain it, but it is not all that impressive....or scientific....or even spectacularly successful. it does, however, allow me to get enough fruit to eat and try out various varieties. My 50 by 35 foot plot used to be the lawn on my side yard that I tilled when we moved in 13 years ago. It gently slopes front to back, had some spots that do not drain well at all. I don't rotate - tomatoes have occupied this space for 13 years now. For quite a few years I mixed fresh soilless mix and composted cow manure into the planting holes. Last year I just planted right into the soil with no amendments. Last year was also quite successful - I had someone come in and till up my soil; I then used a shovel to create raised rows, (something I once did - tends to alleviate the poor drainage problems), about 12 inches above the walking rows. I dig a hole, plant the seedling as deep as I can, dig a hole behind to drive in an 8 foot stake - use a few tbsp of a granular slow release, and a few tbsp slow release lime. I mulch around the plants very well with grass clippings - it is very important to keep the soil off of the foliage. That's it - I water only when absolutely necessary - the heavy clay soil keeps moisture very well - even in our drought last summer, I watered my main garden plants only a couple of times! Because the sun exposure is substandard (about 5-6 hours direct sun per day), my plants stretch - so are quite tall for the yield they give. My 20-40 pounds per plant achieved in Pennsylvania in a much better sun exposure and soil type varies widely here, from 5-20 pounds per plant - but when you are growing 100 plants, that is fine with me! I found that the dry conditions this summer appeared to head off widespread fusarium attack - even in September and October, many varieties were looking surprisingly good. So, to summarize - a few key success procedures for me are: mulching heavily with grass clippings to keep soil off of the foliage, staking to keep plants upright and off of the soil, fertilizing only minimally, planting in raised rows to ensure that the roots don't drown when we get the gully washers - the electric deer fence, of course! that's about it. nothing really too magical. __________________ Craig

February 22, 2006	#4
Tomstrees Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NJ Bayshore Posts: 3,848	I have a large compost bin that I fill throughout the off and growing season. In the fall, I dig 12+ inches below my garden and fill it with the contents of the entire compost and cover it back up. I let mr. winter and worms do their thing while I go nuts over the winter trading - and then in the spring, I do some light soil work and smooth out any bumps. I am gardening in a spot that used to occupy a large oak tree stump that consisted of mostly clay and sand. What I've been doing is adding and adding my bin over the past few years and the soil just keeps getting better and better. I probably have over 2+ feet of really great soil now. Tom __________________ My green thumb came only as a result of the mistakes I made while learning to see things from the plant's point of view. ~ H. Fred Ale

February 22, 2006	#5
TomatoDon Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: MS Posts: 1,523	Raised beds will solve all your problems. If you have poor soil conditions, you will fight it for years and never get it right, the way you want it. With raised beds you can have the best garden soil/conditions in the world with one day of good work. I wasted a lot of time and a lot of money trying to make bad soil good. You can't imagine how much time, money, and work--and the sheer volume of "topsoil"-- it will take to properly amend a garden spot. To get it right, you might as well hire a backhoe, dig it all out two feet deep and fill it back with compost. You are talking about an enormous job to get it right. I've seen people try adding a little here and there each year, and unless they are really aggressive with it, they never get it right. They spend more time working on soil that working with tomatoes. They could accomplish more in one day of building raised beds than they can in years of trying amend soil. Trust me. I made that mistake, and always tell others not to do what I did. Build some nice raised beds. 12' X 4' X 12-24" deep is a good size. The deeper, the better. Fill it with rich compost or soilless mix, and you're in business instantly. I put off building raised beds for years. After 78 of 82 tomato plants drowned one year I built raised beds, and never had that trouble again. And every year when I plant, I dig the holes extra big, and sweeten it with new soilless mix to help with nematode and other problems, and to give the plant as much as I can determine of the good stuff to super charge it, and give the plant brand new and rich soil to boost it off and keep it thriving. I'm pretty new to this game, in a serious way, and that's why I ask so many questions. But I don't think a tomato grower can do better than having good raised beds, filling them with good compost or soilless mix, and filling the planting hole with new compost each year. Many may disagree with me, but I also add a 2" diameter X 16-24" inch PVC pipe to the planting hole. I water the plants this way. It keeps water off the leaves, and puts the water, and soluable fertilizer and other nutrients right at the roots. I fill the pipe, and let it run over, so I am watering from the top and the bottom. Mulching with sheets of newspaper, covered with wheat straw is a good way to keep down weeds, control extreme heat, stabilize moisture, and it looks good to boot. Raised beds are also more attractive, in my opinion, than the regular way. I just don't think you can top it. It's a fun game. Maybe one day I will get good at it. I've made every mistake known to man, but at least I'm eliminating some of that now, and am with the right people here to learn how to do it the right way. Other than building raised beds, the best thing a tomato enthusiast can do is come here, watch, listen, learn, ask, and participate. I guarantee it. Don __________________ Zone 7B, N. MS

February 22, 2006	#6
KCMO_Don Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: KANSAS Posts: 223	Don #2 I do something very similar. I have built single row raised beds for my plants that run North to South, so they get a FULL day of sun. These beds are on a mound already so drainage is good. They are 40 feet long, 2 feet wide, 1 foot tall, but I dug out 12-18 inches under the beds. To those empty dugout beds I added a LOT of shredded dry leaves, horse manure, several hundred pounds of mostly finished homemade compost. We are a vegetarian family so our kitchen waste is substancial (that goes in). I then add the original soil back in, and hit it all with the tiller and cover with breathable black landscaping fabric. I moisten and turn about every 10 days. I was cursed with CLAY, but now I cannot turn one spade of soil without SCADS of earthworms of all stages of developement. This is my first year growing in these beds. Last year I had a great crop, but I am expecting GREAT things this season! __________________ GIGGITY - GIGGITY

February 22, 2006	#2
Rena Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Warm Springs, GA Posts: 1,421	I do not even have soil, I have HARD RED CLAY. I gave up and built raised beds and container garden. We live on a hill so that is also a challege.-Rena

February 22, 2006	#7
PaulF Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brownville, Ne Posts: 3,295	All of the tips are very good ones to pay attention to. Having gone through a change of residence, my garden space went from the best in the world to not very good. The single most important thing I did was have a soil test done to pinpoint my current soil conditions and what was needed to bring my soil to optimum condition. What I would have done was not exactly what my soil needed. It was pretty easy and cheap....$10 well spent.

February 23, 2006	#8
Adenn1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Philly Posts: 559	My garden bed for tomatoes was started two years ago...it was part of the yard and you only had to go 2-3" down to hit hard gray clay...clay as far as I could dig by hand. I did a good amount of reading and research and decided not to take the time and effort to rent a big tiller. I went with a lasagna-gardening approach. Covered the area (grass) with several wet sheets of newspaper...then over the next several months I added layers of grass clippings, shredded leaves, coffee grounds, kitchen scrapes and free leaf compost. The bed sat for about seven months before I used it last spring to plant tomatoes. I found that earth worms had moved in and had done a good amount of aerating of the clay soil. I simply dug 10" in diameter holes...about 12" deep and back filled with a mixture of the material from the hole...amended with some leaf compost. I had covered the area about three weeks prior to planting (May 21st) with black weed fabric to warm the bed...this really seemed to help and got the plants off to a great start. I continued to add matererial around the plants during the season...particularly grass clippings...this kept the weeds down. I did not have to water much...even during dry spells as the clay soil did hold moisture pretty well. At the end of the season, I removed all of the tomatoes and lightly turned the material over in the bed...then started layering grass clippings, leaves, compost, etc. This worked well for me...hope it helps others.

February 23, 2006	#9
MsCowpea Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: S. FLorida / Zone 10 Posts: 369	I agree with Paul about importance of soil test. You can't go wrong adding compost but you may not need to add lime. I was introduced to soil testing in an organic gardening class where we used the book HOW TO GROW MORE VEGETABLES by John Jeavons. I add lots of organic matter and grow cover crops in my raised beds but my soil tests are always highly alkaline (think that may be true where you are too). Plus the test showed very low in potassium and low boron--would never have known without the test. Basic test starts around $10 (I get a more complete one so it is around $20). (In my brand new beds the test showed very poor in everything. ) For those prices you tell them what you want to grow and they even give you recommendations. What kind of fert. and how much to use. I take their figures and usually substitute organic fert. I use A and L Lab. because they have offices all over the country. http://www.al-labs-west.com/index.html http://www.al-labs-west.com/SoilTesting.htm __________________ "When we kill off the natural enemies of a pest we inherit their work." Carl Huffaker

February 23, 2006	#10
JerryL Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: S.W. Ohio z6a Posts: 736	I didn’t have much of a choice but to build terraced raised beds due to the contour of my land. Read hilly. They started out a combination of good old Southwestern Ohio clay and some compost I had. Each year I add a pile of this stuff. Read free horse stuff. After about 6 years I now have soil I’d put up against Victory Garden soil. __________________ Jerry

February 23, 2006	#13
Miss_Mudcat Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 366	Last year was our first year to garden in this location. We have clay soil, so I purchased a dump-truck load of sand, and will do so again this year. RE: Clay soil... the BANE of all gardeners. Am I the only one who is grateful for my clay??? It is very rich and all those nutrients become available with the addition of compost. Tho' I've not had it tested, there are particular weeds that flourish here which indicates the richness, and I save a lot on fertilizer. Lisa __________________ Farmers don't wear watches; they work until the job is done!