Cherokee Carbon - A hybrid

[schill93]

I am confused about this tomato. I see a number of seed companies advertising this tomato as a hybrid. My understanding is that it was bred from crossing a cherokee purple with a carbon, and is a hairloom. So why are many of the seed companies referring to it as a Hybrid. One company refers to it as Cherokee Carbon F1.

I am confused on this, and wish someone more tomato smart would clarify.

[gssgarden]

It's an amazing tomato!! Great purple tomato taste, productive as heck. A mainstay for years in my garden! Heirloom or not, you gotta try it.

Greg

[VirginiaClay]

Whoever created Cherokee Carbon crossed Cherokee Purple and Carbon as you said. Cherokee Purple and Carbon both are stable varieties; they'll grow true from seed. But when you cross them, you end up with a hybrid. The first generation of seeds from tomatoes from the cross-pollinated plant will all produce the same plants/fruit when you plant them, and these first-generation seeds are the ones sold as "Cherokee Carbon" seeds. But then if you save seeds from the tomatoes on the plants you grow from "Cherokee Carbon" seeds, the plants (and their fruits) you grow from those seeds will be all over the map as far as characteristics. This is due to how the dominant and recessive genes match up in the subsequent generations (over-simplification).

To create a stable "Cherokee Carbon" tomato, you'd have to grow out several to many generations (5-9 maybe?), selecting for the right characteristics each time, and there's no guarantee you'd ever get exactly the right result.

That said, sometimes tomatoes that are released as hybrids actually seem to be stable and grow true from saved seed. People have said that about the Brandy Boy hybrid, for example. So it's possible that Cherokee Carbon is stable. I haven't seen anyone report on results of growing it from saved seed.

I've grown Cherokee Carbon three years now and love it -- healthy plant that holds up well to foliage disease, great production, relatively uniform fruit with little cracking or catfacing, and delicious. I saved seeds from my last time growing it and hope to see what grows from them some day when I have more garden space and time for experiments.

[schill93]

So when I see one seed company advertise Cherokee Carbon as an F1, does it mean it came from a seed saved from Cherokee Carbon classified as a Hybrid. (their babies as a result) Are these Hybred babies considered the F1 they refer to?

If so, how do they generally fare compared to the seed classified as Hybrid. I read some articles saying the F! seeds are generally stronger, but F2 etc. are not. Is this true?

Yet then I read that you generally need to grow out 8 or 9 generations in order to get a stable plant. These two statements seem to contradict each other.

Do we have any tomato baby experts here?

Anyone care to direct me to the best vendor for a reliable Cherokee Carbon seed. Not sure which seed/vendor to trust now. Which is more favorable. One advertised as a Hybrid or one advertised as a F1?

[schill93]

Wait a minute. Let start from the beginning. Someone takes pollen created from a stable hairloom tomato flower, (tomato plant A) and brings it over to another stable hairloom of a different named tomato (plant B), and is able to place the pollen successfully on plant B stamin, and a new tomato grows on the plant as a result.

Then when this newly created Hyprid tomato is ripe and the grower collects seed from it, and sells the seed, it is referred to as F1 seed. Am I right so far?

OK, if I am, than the only way to create a true hybrid plant of the newly named cross that was created, is to save seed from each generation and grow it out until a stable version with the desired charactoristics are achieved?

Thereafter, referring to it as a Hybrid plant created as opposed to a first hybrid tomato seed created from the intial cross made. Is this correct?

If I am correct however, which seed is considered more desirable?

Believe me, it is not easy to expose my ignorance on line here, so have pity.

[VirginiaClay]

Originally Posted by schill93

Wait a minute. Let start from the beginning. Someone takes pollen created from a stable hairloom tomato flower, (tomato plant A) and brings it over to another stable hairloom of a different named tomato (plant B), and is able to place the pollen successfully on plant B stamin, and a new tomato grows on the plant as a result.

Then when this newly created Hyprid tomato is ripe and the grower collects seed from it, and sells the seed, it is referred to as F1 seed. Am I right so far?

OK, if I am, than the only way to create a true hybrid plant of the newly named cross that was created, is to save seed from each generation and grow it out until a stable version with the desired charactoristics are achieved?

Thereafter, referring to it as a Hybrid plant created as opposed to a first hybrid tomato seed created from the intial cross made. Is this correct?

If I am correct however, which seed is considered more desirable?

Believe me, it is not easy to expose my ignorance on line here, so have pity.

Yes, the seed from the original cross is the F1 seed, and that's the same thing as the "hybrid" seed. Cherokee Carbon F1 seed means the exact same thing as Cherokee Carbon Hybrid seed. These seeds will produce the Cherokee Carbon tomato.

If you grow the Cherokee Carbon F1 seeds and harvest the resulting Cherokee Carbon tomatoes, the seeds you save from those tomatoes (the F2 seeds) will not grow true -- meaning, any plants you grow from those seeds are likely to produce tomatoes that are somewhat to significantly different from Cherokee Carbon. It's possible the differences won't be really obvious, especially when the parents are fairly similar like these are (both are large, black, regular leaf, indeterminate beefsteaks), but you'll get some differences.

If you go through a process of growing multiple generations of seeds, selecting the characteristics you want at each generation, you may eventually be able to produce a stable tomato that is similar to or the same as Cherokee Carbon. At that point, it would be Cherokee Carbon OP (open pollinated), and its seeds would produce the same tomatoes, down through the generations.

So, no, it's not correct to say that you get a "true hybrid plant" by saving seed from each generation. That's how you turn a hybrid into an OP (if you're skilled and lucky and it works).

[VirginiaClay]

Originally Posted by schill93

Anyone care to direct me to the best vendor for a reliable Cherokee Carbon seed. Not sure which seed/vendor to trust now. Which is more favorable. One advertised as a Hybrid or one advertised as a F1?

As I said in my other reply, Hybrid seeds and F1 seeds are the same thing. I got mine from Tomato Growers Supply and have been very happy with them. All the seeds have grown true so far, with excellent (almost 100%) germination and healthy plants: https://tomatogrowers.com/products/c...8d118877&_ss=r

Botanical Interests, Territorial, Gurney's, and High Mowing all sell it and are reputable companies. I'd steer clear of Amazon, eBay and Etsy sources. Bonnie Plants sells it in plant form at Home Depot, etc., and it's pretty widely available at garden centers in spring.

The retailers don't produce the seed themselves; they get it from manufacturers/distributors who contract out the production, usually overseas. So basically all the retailers (the honest ones, which is most of them) will be selling the same seed.

[schill93]

OK, it's clear now, and I thank you all. So in essence, there are two seed types that emerge from a cross pollination from two stable hairlooms. The
'first born" (F1 seed) and subsequent generations if you know what your doing and can produce a stable Hybrid Open Pollinated seed eventually.

[PaulF]

When the Dwarf Project was still going strong, this process of creating a stable cross sometimes took many years, sometimes less than many. Rather than begin selling or trading the several crosses in the F-1 stage the smart folks involved waited until the crosses became stable. By most definitions they had not become heirlooms but could be classified as Open Pollenated. The resulting seeds would grow true from the stable plant and fruit. I worked on several varieties that took up to F-7 to stabilize.

Not yet having grown Cherokee Carbon, I am sure I will; those two are favorites of mine separately so why not the hybrid form? Or maybe I will wait for the OP form if anyone will take the time to stabilize it.