whats the big deal about leaf shape.

[markferon]

i have seen many post about leaf shapes and I just don't get it. I can understand the interest fruit shapes and color as that is matter of eating and looks.
Leaf shape of which i believe from reading here and elsewhere there are five basic types.
What does it really matter what a plants leaf shape is?
I mean really what proven differences does leaf type add to the mix.

[nctomatoman]

The big thing is that it is characteristic of a particular variety, just like fruit shape and color and size. If a variety is regular leaf, and you end up getting a potato leaf, you no longer have the variety you thought you did - you either have a cross or a mix up.

It really is only of interest to those who want to know what they are growing. If one is not concerned with the variety, then it is indeed extra information.

[Miss_Mudcat]

Opinion from a Novice:

Obviously for identification; distinguishing between varieties. (Can't confuse Silvery Fir Tree with Lime Green Salad with Anna Russian with Glacier if your seedlings get mixed up.)

I've heard some say PL offers disease resistance. Perhaps that has been proven??

Again, identifiable traits in the case of accidental crossing.

Lisa

[montanamato]

In areas of heat and hail the leaf differences can be more than cosmetic. When afternoon thunder boomers hit the garden ,the only unscathed fruit is generally on the PL and small , determinate varieties. The wind doesn't beat them up as bad either.
Also more leaf camouflage from chickens and children.

Jeanne

[carolyn137]

Mark,

If you don't get it when it comes to leaf shapes for different varieties then it says that you personally aren't interested. Which is fine, as I say, to each their own.

And you have seen and I assume read, the many threads about this as well as the FAQ at GW.

Some folks, like myself just love to grow PL ( potato leaf) varieties.

Why? For one thing most varieties are not PL, they are RL ( regular leaf), so that makes them different from the get go. I get all excited, I kid you not, when I first grow out a new variety that someone has sent me and it turns out to be PL.

In addition to just liking PL's b'c they are PL's, I find that they often, but not always, have a heavier foliage cover than do RL varieties, and thus when foliage diseases do hit, there's always a bit more backup foliage on the plant.

In addition, I find that most PL vareties I grow are more tolerant of the four common foliage diseases. So that at the end of the season whereas most of my plants are down and out, the PL ones are still green and thriving.

Not everyone has had that same tolerance to foliage diseases that I've seen, but it's another reason why I like them.

I've speculated that the leaf epidermis with PL's might be thicker than with RL's but have no data or proof at all, just visible observation after maybe 20 years of growing PL and RL varieties.

So that's PL and RL varieties.

Next is Rugose foliage, where the leaves are pleated and puckered and usually a deep green, and not that many varieties do have rugose foliage. Most of them are dwarfs or determinates, depending on how one defines those two plant habits.

And again, it's strictly a personal preference in growing them, but they too seem to be more tolerant of foliage diseases, in my experience.

Next would be angora foliage where the leaves are fuzzy and have a gray/green cast to them. Again, not that many varieties have angora foliage and I find that the fruits of most of them are not that tasty and also have said that I consider them to be novelty types in that regard. Most folks just getting into growing heirloom try one or two just b'c they are a novelty and they want to see what that foliage looks like.

But to see the sun glinting off that angora foliage is a treat and my favorite angora variety is Velvet Red, aka Angora Super Sweet.

Pure wonderful curiousity in what leaf types one grows, which I'm glad to see.

And the last of the five types you referred to but didn't list would be variegated foliage, which in terms of varieties that can be grown from seed, b'c most reqire vegetative propagation, are the newest kids on the block.

And the one I know best and listed in the SSE YEarbook and also made seeds available to folks at GW last year is called simply Variegated and by some in Europe as Variegata.

SSE sold plants last year and this year is also selling seeds. And by now I'm sure that seeds have been widely distributed so that some commercial places are also offering seeds for Variegated, I mean other than SSE.

The fruits are surprisingly good tasting, not great, but good, for again, what I call a novelty type, and the stems and partially ripe fruits also show variegation as well, but that variegation lessens in high heat. The partially ripe fruits show wedges of green near the stem end which disappears as the fruits ripen full red.

So the five you referred to are:

Regular Leaf (RL), with many variations
Potato Leaf (PL). with some variations
Rugose
Angora
Variegated

And the big deal you refer to is simply the personal choices of those who prefer to grow varieties with those leaf traits for whatever reason.

[nctomatoman]

I guess my question to you, mark - why is size such a big deal for you (if I remember correctly, you tend to like to grow big veggies). I have to say that my interest in size is akin to your interest in leaf shape.

To each their own.

[TomatoDon]

mark, you've asked me in another thread how to discern the taste of a tomato. If you don't know what a tomato tastes like, then none of us can tell you. You've asked another, who nicely mentioned tomato rankings, and you were cross with that, too. Other threads as well.

Now, you've asked what a potato leaf is. If you haven't figured that out yet, again, none of us can tell you. A potato leaf looks like a potato leaf. And a tomato taste like a tomato. Try both.

If you grow tomatoes, as you say you do, and if you want to be a nice guest on this forum, then do it. A tomato is a tomato, taste is taste, the sun rises in the east, it sets in the west. Learn those simple things. I hate to say this, but you, above all, seem to like to provoke trouble here. I saved the best words.

M, Carolyn, and Craig have been pretty nice so far. And so have I.

Now shut up and plant! :wink:

Don

[Rena]

I am always looking for pl types. I find myself looking in the sse book for just that. It seems my favorite tomatoes are mainly pl. -Rena

[markferon]

don you are misquoting me i asked how do you determine real tomato taste. There is big difference between the two.

carolyn It not that i am not interested. I see alot statements and no scientific proof about qualities people atribute to different leaf types.
Your leaf thickness statement should be easy to test.
As for the resitance statement it should be easily to test.
Also i thought you did not beleive in desease resistance.

nc so you assume all incorrect leaf shapes are crosses and leave not room for mutation?

montanamato i don't buy that one since I have had both pl and rl survive well though hurrcaine force winds with my cage design and noticed no difference in leaf or limb breakage amounts.

[timcunningham]

Mark,

Comparing your original post at the top, to the one just above. I have to wonder, if your first post was a leading question.


It is obvious from your last post that you know a lot about tomatoes, probably more than most people. However your first post if you take it face value, is a statement of curiosity. Here is how I initially interpreted your statement. "Hey what's the deal with leaf shape? Does it really make a difference? Help me understand what the difference is."

After reading your last post I get the feeling that you know exactly how you feel about leaf shape. You know exactly the difference between them. You have a definate opinion about them.

My question to you is this: What is your purpose in posting THIS thread? I don't know your history. I don't know you from GW. I only know you from this one thread. So I am only discussing this one thread. Why did you post this one thread?

Was it:
1. To learn from the opinions of others?
2. To show people how much you know?
3. Other.

[markferon]

I wanted to find out if there was any real difference in leaf
shape when it came to end result that was based on
real science and not opinion. Most of responce if got where
opinion though experence which is not wrong but not what I was looking for.

[TomatoDon]

C, can you pass me a nerve pill while I read on?

D

[timcunningham]

Fair enough, Mark. So your answer is 3. Other.

You do not wish for Opinion or to show how much you know. You wish to find scientific answers to your questions. I can understand that, I like definative answers to things. I disllike it when people espouse opinions as facts.

So when you were asking your original question, you were asking only for an informed scientific answer? An absolute truth that could not be debated?

You seemed to say that most of the responses are only based on "experience" not science. You don't want that? I can understand that, I hate going through 30 posts to find the real answer I was looking for. If that truly is the case, may I suggest that when this is the case you state that in your original question? Something along the lines of "No opinions please! Only informed scientific facts need reply."

That will make it easy for me and others to know if we are wasting your time in replying to your thread with our "personal experience"

Thanks!

[markferon]

fair enough tim

[timcunningham]

Thanks I will be looking for it in your posts!