Is there a list of dominant and recessive traits?

[Hilde]

Hi,

I have been reading the posts in this forum, because I have become very interested in tomato genetics. I am not a scientist though, and the gene list is confusing, it doesn't tell me what traits are dominant or recessive or partially dominant or recessive. Maybe I have overlooked something, but I can't seem to see where that is.

I am growing out some tomatoes that has the temporary name Kelloggs Breakfast Heart F2. Mark Korney grew the F1, which was supposed to be Kelloggs Breakfast, but produced red heart shaped fruit on a RL plant.

I sowed 21 seeds and got 50/50 RL/PL seedlings. This suggests as far as I know that KB has PL in it's background (Cc) and was crossed with a PL variety (cc). My interest in tomato genetics now exploded, but I can't seem to find answers to all my questions anywhere!

The little I know is:
Yellow skin is dominant to clear skin.
Red color is dominant to yellow color.
Regular Leaf is dominant to Potato Leaf.
Small size is partially dominant to larger size fruit.

I wonder about things like: Where does Orange fit in here? Is it considered a variation of yellow? How about shapes? What would be dominant of heart, globe, beefsteak, elongated plum, irregular shapes just to name a few? Where does bicoloration fit in? If you cross a bicolor variety with a single color variety, how would the offspring be? If you cross a tricolor variety with a bicolor variety, how would that offspring be? Also, within the main colors: If you cross a pale yellow (white) variety with a warmer yellow variety (For instance Hugh's x Azoychka), would the warmer yellow be dominant to the pale yellow? Where does the gene that causes the green-when-ripe varieties to stay green fit in? What happens if you cross a det. variety with an ind. variety?

Thanks!

Hilde

[feldon30]

http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/mutant.html

http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Genes.html

[carolyn137]

Hilde, Mark bugged me again about my 2004 growout list and I did find it and will communicate with both of you.

Folks, Hilde is referring to KB that I sent Mark where one plant turned out to be as she described, a red RL heart.

He's been asking me what hearts/plums I grew in 2004.

Hilde, as I see it there's no reason at all to presume that KB has any PL in it's background, as in Cc, where the C could mutate to c. And that potential could exist with many varieties but the change from RL to PL for a single variety is not that common. The problem is that we have no idea of which varities are heterozygous for leaf form, as in Cc.

Yes, we have KBX, a PL KB, but that could have come about in several ways ala mutation and not just a spontaneous one involving just one gene pair. It's possible but not probable as I see it now.

In addition to the links given above, you might want to look at the 2nd edition of Carol Deppes book titled How to Breed Your Own Vegetables where there's an extensive list of tomato genes indicating which are dominant and recessive..

And while I still intend to send to you and Mark what I can, it's going to make much more sense when you've grown out your F2 PL and RL plants and see what they give you.

If it were a stray seed then you wouldn't be getting PL and RL's in the F2, as you know.

[Hilde]

Morgan, those links will list a lot of genes/traits, but I can't figure out what is recessive and what is dominant from it! Thanks for always being so helpful! I really appreciate it.

Carolyn, I didn't mean to bother you with your notebook, since we do have months ahead of us before we see how the KB Heart F2 looks like. What I want with this post is to learn more about tomato genetics, and I have to start from scratch. That book you recommended might be exactly what I have been looking for, and I will check it out! Thanks!

I think this is so much fun and I would like to try to make a cross myself this year, just for the fun of it.

If a Cc variety self pollinate, will you get 1/4 PL?

It seems to me now that the KB Heart F2 seedlings have variations in leaves, not only the big difference between RL and PL. One of the PL plants is getting quite hairy leaves and the leaf itself is not smooth. I haven't grown so many varieties before, and I don't think I have seen leaves like that before on a tomato plant. I will try to document as much as possible this year. Make it an amateur research project. And then perhaps MAYBE by the end of the season we will be able to make an educated guess to who the other parent is.

Thanks!

Hilde

[carolyn137]

Yes, a Cc X Cc will give you 1/4 cc( PL)

And I'll bet you a LOT of something that you'll never know what the other parent is. Through the years I've had quite a few chance X pollinations and there simply is no way to determine what both parents are, just the maternal parent.

Now that's if you grow a lot of varieties as I have in the past, as in hundreds of plants and usually 100 and more different varieties. And I haven't taken the time to grow out many F2's, especially if the taste of the F1 was not all that great.

But who knows, maybe you will be able to ID it when I send you and Mark what he asked for, and that was hearts and plums. And he already asked if I was growing any Red PL's and the answer was no, not in the summer of 2004.

And yes, I think Deppe's book will be quite helpful to you.

[Sherry_AK]

Another link to the above information in .pdf format.

http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/10/4/305

[Hilde]

Dave and Sherry, you guys rock, this is exactly the type of info I am looking for!

Carolyn, I have ordered the book you recommended! It got great reviews on amazon.com. It is rare to see people raving about a book like they did that one. I can't wait to read it!

Dave, you should keep us updated on your cross attempts this season. I want to try crossing tomatoes for the first time also. Maybe the experiences we make during our first attempt can be helpful to others who want to try?

Hilde

[carolyn137]

Hilde, here's another perspective.

I applaud your efforts to do crosses as I do others, but most of the folks that I know pay little to no attention at all concerning tomato genes and dominance, recessiveness, except when using a PL for the maternal plant when the other parent is an RL, so one can tell if the cross took.

What most folks seem to do is to choose two varieties that have characteristics that they'd like to see combined in some way, into ultimately one offspring.

So that means saving seeds from thje initial F1 hybrid, planting out as many as you can from those F2 seeds, making selections from one or more plants whose fruits and performance please you, planting out the F3 seed, etc.

That is, they don't sit down and look at genes and try to predict what they might get based on the parents they've selected.

It's kind of like my foray into breeding daylilies when I'd go out in the AM and cross pretty by pretty. Or frangrant by fragrant.

Don't get me wong now, a knowledge of tomato genes , at least of the more common ones, is good to know, but there's so much more that isn't known, one example being the genes involved with gold/red bicolors.

[Hilde]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Hilde, here's another perspective.

I applaud your efforts to do crosses as I do others, but most of the folks that I know pay little to no attention at all concerning tomato genes and dominance, recessiveness, except when using a PL for the maternal plant when the other parent is an RL, so one can tell if the cross took.

What most folks seem to do is to choose two varieties that have characteristics that they'd like to see combined in some way, into ultimately one offspring.

So that means saving seeds from thje initial F1 hybrid, planting out as many as you can from those F2 seeds, making selections from one or more plants whose fruits and performance please you, planting out the F3 seed, etc.

That is, they don't sit down and look at genes and try to predict what they might get based on the parents they've selected.

It's kind of like my foray into breeding daylilies when I'd go out in the AM and cross pretty by pretty. Or frangrant by fragrant.

Don't get me wong now, a knowledge of tomato genes , at least of the more common ones, is good to know, but there's so much more that isn't known, one example being the genes involved with gold/red bicolors.

Caroline, I have always been very interested in genetics and and dominant and recessive traits etc. I know you don't absolutely have to know these things in order to make crosses. But I want to! Just because I think it is a lot of fun!
So I am really looking forward to reading the book you recommended, and the research papers Dave and Sherry linked to.

Talking about gold/red bicolors, I have some Cherokee Bicolor from Mark growing in the green house. From two different mother plants. I believe they are F3.

How come there is so little known about the genetics of bicolors? Has there been little research on this or is this just particularly difficult to find out of? I just assumed that I would get all gold/red bicolored cherokees, but maybe not? The plants are very healthy, and they have tolerated whatever conditions I have in the green house better than most any other plant, perhaps except Bulgarian #7.

Is bicoloration dominant or recessive to single coloration?

I am having a lot of fun here, and part of the fun is learning about tomato genetics and speculate to whatever will show up in the crosses and offsprings. I don't have any illusions that I know it all, genetics can be very complicated. At some point I thought that two parents with blue eyes could not get brown eyed offspring, but it is in fact possible, although it doesn't happen very often. Genetics is more complicated than one would perhaps think.

Hilde

[stratcat1]

Hilde, I also find genetics very interesting.

Does anyone have any info on bicolors and stripes? This would sure help me in my experiments.

Thanks.

john

[Tom Wagner]

Hilde,



You have a lot of questions, but I don't think anyone can fully explain less making a complicated study yet further complicated.

.....the gene list is confusing, it doesn't tell me what traits are dominant or recessive or partially dominant or recessive. Maybe I have overlooked something, but I can't seem to see where that is.

Patience is required with genetics!

I am growing out some tomatoes that has the temporary name Kelloggs Breakfast Heart F2. Mark Korney grew the F1, which was supposed to be Kelloggs Breakfast, but produced red heart shaped fruit on a RL plant.

OK. I know that Kellogg's Breakfast is a regulare leaf, pale orange fleshed tomato with no bi-coloring.

The heart shape must be coming from the other parent. The genetics does not necessarily mean that the other parent is red!!!!!

I sowed 21 seeds and got 50/50 RL/PL seedlings. This suggests as far as I know that KB has PL in it's background (Cc) and was crossed with a PL variety (cc). My interest in tomato genetics now exploded, but I can't seem to find answers to all my questions anywhere!

I am not sure where this high of percentages of phenotype of potato leaf is coming from. Where are you coming up with the idea that KB has PL in it's background? See this link:

http://www.victoryseeds.com/catalog/..._breakfast.jpg

The little I know is:
Yellow skin is dominant to clear skin.
Red color is dominant to yellow color.
Regular Leaf is dominant to Potato Leaf.
Small size is partially dominant to larger size fruit.

Correct so far

I wonder about things like: Where does Orange fit in here? Is it considered a variation of yellow?

Depends on which orange gene you are talking about.

How about shapes? What would be dominant of heart, globe, beefsteak, elongated plum, irregular shapes just to name a few?

A few? Good Grief? I could not spend the time to show the dominant, incomplete dominance, etc., without writing the book.

Where does bicoloration fit in? If you cross a bicolor variety with a single color variety, how would the offspring be?

You don't want to know much, do you?

If you cross a tricolor variety with a bicolor variety, how would that offspring be?

You want an answer on that too?

Also, within the main colors: If you cross a pale yellow (white) variety with a warmer yellow variety (For instance Hugh's x Azoychka), would the warmer yellow be dominant to the pale yellow?

To get the answer to that, you would have to visit my tomato trials with all this diverse crossing work going on, with F-1 hybrids, backcrosses, F-2's, three way crosses, etc.

Where does the gene that causes the green-when-ripe varieties to stay green fit in?

I have all of that.

What happens if you cross a det. variety with an ind. variety?

You get mostly a strong semideterminant, but not always.

Talking about gold/red bicolors, I have some Cherokee Bicolor from Mark growing in the green house. From two different mother plants. I believe they are F3.

There are different patterns of bi-colors. You really don't want me to describe all of them, do you?

How come there is so little known about the genetics of bicolors? Has there been little research on this or is this just particularly difficult to find out of? I just assumed that I would get all gold/red bicolored cherokees, but maybe not?

Bi-colored tomatoes have exploded in popularity in the last few years. And most of it by hobby type gardeners leading the way. The professionals have not kept up. Try to put together a Punnett Square with multiple alleles and describe phenotypes in the segregation, let alone realize that some bi colors designs are best viewed in lines that will still segregate

Is bicoloration dominant or recessive to single coloration?

I would have to dig out all kinds of examples of my hybrids with the notes taken down over the years. I even get confused on this topic.

I am having a lot of fun here, and part of the fun is learning about tomato genetics and speculate to whatever will show up in the crosses and offsprings. I don't have any illusions that I know it all, genetics can be very complicated. Genetics is more complicated than one would perhaps think.

Hilde, thanks for saying that.

Some observations: First go to this site....


http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/...urcetype=HWCIT


The F1 hybrids red X apricot, yellow X apricot, yellow-tangerine X apricot and
tangerine X apricot were red in color, but as can be seen from table 3, the lycopene
content was not always within the range of a typical red,



Dave mentioned the genetics.org's large info site. See below for a 1937/1953 era reference...


http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/38/2/117.pdf

1937)
Cites correspondence with MACARTHUR which the latter suggested that
crosses involving Tangerine orange (RRtt) and yellow (YYTT) produce a
9 red : 3 yellow : 4 orange (3 orange and 1 light orange) F2 ratio. From their
own data, however, these authors suggested that the inheritance was considerably
more complicated.

Monohybrid segregation is always a first start of explaining genetics...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monohybrid_cross

Monohybrid cross is used to determine the F2 generation from a pair of homozygous grandparents (one grandparent dominant, the other recessive) which results in an F1 generation that are all heterozygous. The pairing of these offspring results in a monohybrid cross and results in the F2 generation, with a 75% chance for the dominant phenotype and a 25% chance for the recessive phenotype.

A dihybrid cross is one where two traits are crossed.

Phenotypic Ratio

9

3

3

1

Note the segregation of MacAthur’s Tangerine/Yellow cross earlier in the segregation of phenotypes

Trihybrid Cross (three genes)

Segregation in the F-2 population depending on allele counts.
Monohybrid phenotypic ratio= 3:1
Dihybrid= 9:3:3:1
Trihybrid= 27:9:9:9:3:3:3:1
Tetrahybrid= 81:27:27:27:27:9:9:9:9:3:3:3:3:1

You notice a pattern here? The more a trait is controlled by multiple genes at different alleles, the more confusing the blanket statements on bi-colors, etc. can be. The F-2 and even to some degree the F-3 population is showing phenotypical disorder. One must know from experience when something is stable or not, and that may be an exercise of trial and error for most of us.

The major problem I have in bi-colors is that I need more time and more plants to establish ratio coordinates. When I most often have only one or maybe six plants in an F-2 or F-3 population, I cannot answer as certainly as a Three Stooges character.

Tom Wagner
BTW, forgive my ramblings.

[stratcat1]

Tom,

Thanks for the additional information and your in-depth insights.

john

[carolyn137]

Quote:
I am growing out some tomatoes that has the temporary name Kelloggs Breakfast Heart F2. Mark Korney grew the F1, which was supposed to be Kelloggs Breakfast, but produced red heart shaped fruit on a RL plant.
OK. I know that Kellogg's Breakfast is a regulare leaf, pale orange fleshed tomato with no bi-coloring.

The heart shape must be coming from the other parent. The genetics does not necessarily mean that the other parent is red!!!!!

****

Tom, just to bring you up to speed here, I sent some KB seeds to Mark and he grew out this F1 almost red heart and he wants me to look at my grow out list for the year I saved the KB seeds and I've told both him and Hilde I'd get back to them with that.

And I also have mentioned that the other parent doesn't have to be red. I found out that when Craig and I were trying to figure out the other parent for what became known as OTV Brandywine, which was a cross between Yellow Brandywine and ?????.

At first I assumed the other parent had to be red, but that turned out not to be the case re genetics.

Hilde and others, please note above that I said something along the lines of.......don't get me wrong.....about genetics not being important. I taught biochemical genetics and human genetics for many years, but to date I know far more about those situations than I do tomato genetics.

Sometimes when I get a plant with fruits that are crossed I do try to check out genetics re a possible other parent, but most of the time I don't. And I don't do deliberate crosses so that hasn't been an issue with me.

So as I said above, little is known about the genetics of gold/red bicolors as Tom has also mentioned. So Tom, if you've got a handle on it, why not share?

[Tom Wagner]

I would like to share a few things about the bi-color mess, but I am going to gone for a 12 wedding schedule for my daughter Karina. I am finishing up a transplant to the field of about 500 varieties of tomatoes right now, so don't wait up for me. My Lamarckian tomato planting with temps in the 40's is rather insane, but somebody has to to the remarkable lamarckian thing.

Tom Wagner

[stratcat1]

Not waiting up but looking forward to more of your informative writing!

john