Experience vs Impatience

[b54red]

I have posted before about the problems I have to one degree or another every year with slight to severe iron deficiency showing up in my tomatoes. If I am quick enough to spot the problem and give them a foliar spray with an iron chelate mixed in water with a few drops of soap it usually goes away with one or two sprays within a week. I saw the first symptoms on some of my plants in my tomato bed and some severe symptoms on some volunteer plants outside my beds so I decided to give them a foliar spray. With 90 degree days starting up I didn't want to have to go out and do this several times so I had the brilliant thought of just making the mix I spray much more concentrated. My thought being they would take up a bit more iron and only need one spray and I wouldn't have to do the vinegar and water ground soak to temporarily up my ph along with more foliar sprays. Guess what? You can definitely give plants too much iron at once and it isn't a pretty sight. It wasn't apparent yesterday but by this morning the damage was done. I don't know if it will get worse and cause me major problems or not right now. So far I have gone ahead and removed some of my growth tips and some stems that were obviously poisoned by the amount of iron they took in. Luckily I didn't spray all the plants nearly as much as the ones showing the iron deficiency symptoms so many of them look like they will be alright. I am just hoping this will be only a temporary setback for the ones that I sprayed heavily.

I usually mix about 1/8 to 1/4 of a teaspoon of 7% chelated iron in a quart of water and spray the new growth. Yesterday I used at least a full teaspoon and maybe a bit more. I made the same mistake years ago with the vinegar soak. I had had really good results with using one ounce to the gallon and wetting the soil below my plants to give a little acid to my soil to help release phosphorus and iron in my high ph soil so I tried 4 or 5 oz to the gallon but luckily on just a few plants. The small plants died from taking up too much of both elements. The leaves of the plants looked just like the pictures of phosphorus poisoning.

Luckily my ph has been going down slightly over the past few years as I add things to the soil to bring it down but it still is too high. I added a large amount of peat to most of my beds this year but the one that has my first planting of tomatoes didn't get the peat added and it is the only one that showed any iron deficiency so far so maybe the peat will help. After 40 years I'm still stubborn enough to still only learn the hard way.

Bill

[AlittleSalt]

Bill, we both learn the hard way. I was almost out the door to go get a couple spray products for the garden when I saw this post. You made me think. Thank you.

[brownrexx]

I've had good results with using organic sulfur in my garden to bring the pH down.

[Worth1]

I have used the setting on 8 oz per gallon with no ill effect gut you better wash the plants down with fresh water fast.

[b54red]

Originally Posted by brownrexx

I've had good results with using organic sulfur in my garden to bring the pH down.

I hate to go with the sulfur route because of the number of worms in my garden and if I miscalculate and get the soil too acidic I could really have a mess with too many elements available to the plants at once. I am taking the gradual approach using things like cottonseed meal, pine bark fines and peat to bring my soil ph down gradually. My beds were all above 8 and one was as high as 8.4 seven or eight years ago and now none of them are above 7.2 and a couple are getting almost below 7. I have had much healthier plants and much less severe instances of iron deficiency the past couple of years as the ph has gotten to a better level. I just sometimes get impatient and make stupid decisions sometimes when I'm hot and tired. I think age may have something to do with it also.

Bill

[jtjmartin]

Bill:

Thanks for sharing your successes and failures.

This year I decided to spray herbicide too close to my seedlings . . . now I have some curly and deformed tops. I'll kick myself for a while. But, hopefully, I will not repeat the mistake for a few years.

My Father-in-Law was a wonderful man. I would tell him how I screwed up; I'd be so embarrassed, but he would pat my back and say, "Costs you something to learn."

[Worth1]

Bill I want to ask because something I did here the other day.
I sprayed 8 OZ to the gallon and it didn't do anything to some weeds and grass but make them happy.
No the pick up siphon tube is not clogged.
Now I am wondering what vinegar you are using.
5% acidity or 10% AKA 90 grain.
I use 5% house hold distilled white stuff you use for pickling.

Worth

[b54red]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Bill I want to ask because something I did here the other day.
I sprayed 8 OZ to the gallon and it didn't do anything to some weeds and grass but make them happy.
No the pick up siphon tube is not clogged.
Now I am wondering what vinegar you are using.
5% acidity or 10% AKA 90 grain.
I use 5% house hold distilled white stuff you use for pickling.

Worth

Worth I don't think that using the vinegar itself is what caused the problem but rather the extremely high levels of Phosphorus in my soil that is locked up due to the high ph levels. My P levels got so high according to the soil expert at the agricultural college due to the huge amounts of cow and horse manure that I have added to this ground over 35 years of gardening in the same place. I also used regular triple 10 and triple 13 for over 20 years both spring and fall so that added to the build up of P. The ph was raised too high by the huge amounts of fresh mushroom compost that I added every gardening season spring and fall for about 8 years. I didn't find out the ph of the stuff was well over 8 until I tested the ph the last year I used it; but finding golf balls of gypsum or lime of some type in it should have given me a clue much sooner. Oh well just more learning the hard way. You would think after 40 years of gardening I might think a bit more before I act but I guess I'll go to my grave learning the hard way.

When I used the 4 oz to the gallon it just lowered the ph enough that too much P was released and was sucked in by the young plants. I did it to a few of the older plants that were 7 or 8 ft tall and they loved it. I used the regular white pickling vinegar but soaked the ground under the plants with the solution.

I will continue to use this to get more iron to my plants and also phosphorus but will be much more careful with new seedlings. With young plants I will dial it back to one ounce to the gallon and check the results in a few days to see if they need more. I was planning on soaking the ground under a couple of my two month old plants that are in the same section of a long bed that are showing definite signs of iron deficiency while the rest of the bed is looking great. I checked and for some reason the ph for about 8 ft of the bed is nearly a half point higher in that area so I guess they are having a more difficult time absorbing some nutrients that they need. I was going to do it this afternoon but it started raining around noon today and has been raining off and on since then.

I have found that giving my bell peppers a good soaking of one to two ounces a gallon when they are not forming peppers well will give them a real boost in production. So far this year that has not been a problem for my bells because I added a bunch of peat and pine bark fines to the beds they are in and it did bring down the ph.

Bill

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Worth1

Bill I want to ask because something I did here the other day.
I sprayed 8 OZ to the gallon and it didn't do anything to some weeds and grass but make them happy.
No the pick up siphon tube is not clogged.
Now I am wondering what vinegar you are using.
5% acidity or 10% AKA 90 grain.
I use 5% house hold distilled white stuff you use for pickling.

Worth

8 oz household vinegar diluted to one gallon, is not going to kill any weed, imo.
I would get some cheap distilled vinegar and spray it straight or 50/50.
It has only 4.5 to 5% ACETIC acid. 8 oz in a gallon will have 0.35% acid. It will be as acidid as some tomato juice.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

8 oz household vinegar diluted to one gallon, is not going to kill any weed, imo.
I would get some cheap distilled vinegar and spray it straight or 50/50.
It has only 4.5 to 5% ACETIC acid. 8 oz in a gallon will have 0.35% acid. It will be as acidid as some tomato juice.

That wasn't the point I was trying to copy Bills experience and didn't know why it ripped his plants a new one until he explained it.
I always spray with 8oz the the gallon and give a quick rinse.
8oz to the gallon will spot up the leaves.

[b54red]

I am not spraying the leaves or the plant just soaking the ground under the plant for a quick and temporary reduction in PH. I know it is a very weak solution but I have to be so very careful with the extremely high amount of phosphorous that has built up in my soil. I am trying to reduce it by taking a lot of green mater out and not returning it to the ground in compost in order to reduce the P levels in my compost. That is the main reason I am afraid to use sulfur to lower my PH. I fear lowering my ph too far would result in such high levels of available phosphorus that I would not be able to grow a lot of plants.

I am going at it slowly for once in trying to reduce my ph and my phosphorus so I don't make things worse. Right now my plants are very productive and the productivity is increasing with the gradual lowering of both so I only use the vinegar for slight alterations in spots.

Bill

[Worth1]

Bill my raised beds have a high pH from the soil I bought by the truck load.
In their mix it said gypsum, that on top of may high calcium water the plants wouldn't grow.

I got made fun of here but my hillbilly method of checking pH was vinegar mixed in a container of soil.
It foamed.
Then I tool a cheap pH meter and checked it with that.
I got around 8.5.
I checked it with another method and got about the same thing.
Again I got made fun of but when I added the vinegar at 8oz to the gallon the cheap meter read around 6 or so and the plants exploded.
Even at this rate the ground foamed.
Again made fun of because I wasn't scientific enough.
Big deal.

This year I put a good layer of plant tone on the soil after I hoed it up and then mixed it in.
This was done to one half of the bed.
The other I just hoed it up and used Alaska fish fertilizer.
The one with plant tone exploded the one without didn't.
Both beds have okra growing in them.
I acidified the soil in both beds and the one with plant tone did better and the one without did too but not much.
I tried MG blue to no avail.
So this morning I hoed up the one without plant tone and mixed a pile of plant tone in.
Then I watered everything with the fish food again.

I can guarantee there is something in that plant tone helping with the pH or something I have no idea what or why and I have not checked the pH with my joke of a meter.
I dont really care what it is the plants are growing fast.
We shall see now if the just treated one takes off.

Worth

[Worth1]

Okay Bill I am now a member of the club.
I experimented with some vinegar and mixed it pretty strong in a container with water and dumped it along some cucumbers that looked too pale for my liking and not growing very fast.
The next day they looked like they had been starved for water and were hanging like wet rags.
These plants were about 8 inches tall.
I started pumping water to them to flush out some of the vinegar and they have now bounced back big time and growing fast and darker green.
Some of the leaves looked pretty bad but the new leaves are fine.

The okra next to the cucumbers didn't seem to care one bit.
I have so many cucumber plants growing I just decided to experiment.
The 8 oz to the gallon setting is 16:1 water vinegar.
I think my mix was around 6:1 or 8:1. water vinegar.

Worth

[zipcode]

I only saw this thread now.
Do you happen to have some pictures maybe? I can't seem to find any on the internet.
Last 2 years I had some bizarre symptoms in my containers, which I still haven't identified.
Which parts of the plant were affected? New growth?

[Worth1]

Mine the whole plant was effected and the leaves looked like wet rags.
After they came out of it there was dried up brown spots on them and the ends/edges were scorched.
The new growth is fine, I dont have pictures of mine.
But think of pulling a plant out of the ground and letting it shrivel up.

I really did think they were goners.
But in just a day or so they came out of it and started growing like never before.
If I am not getting at least an inch or so a day from a cucumber plant that size something is wrong.

Okra on the other hand is one of the few eating plants that can grow well with a pH over 7.
Other than a cactus.

Worth