Question about the Gilbert Italian Plum

[jennifer28]

I have a question about the origins of the Gilbert Italian Plum tomato. There is a man who has very generously supported our school gardens here in Connecticut, his name is Sal Gilbertie. The Gilbertie family has been farming in Connecticut for many generations, starting when they first arrived here from Italy. Now I was speaking with Sal about tomatoes, my favorite subject, of course. We got into this discussion about seed production and I gave him some Cowlick Brandywine plants to try because I was trying to convince him he needed to sell that strain of Brandywine. He told me that he really wants to support organic seed companies so he doesn't do his own seed production EXCEPT for one tomato.

The one tomato he told me about is a paste tomato that has a little point on the end - now I realize we could be talking about many paste tomatoes here, but anyway he has this tomato that I believe he calls the "Gilbertie Paste Tomato" and it is the one that he said his grandmother brought here from Italy.

I know that Sal would not make up a "fake heirloom" story - as a matter of fact he just told me about the tomato history because we were having a discussion about heirlooms. He doesn't advertise the story and as far as I know he hasn't told it to very many people. So I do believe him about the origin of the tomato.

I have seed the "Gilbertie Tomato" listed in seed savers and there is a story about how it originated from Pennsylvania.

I have also seen the paste tomato named the "Gilbert Plum Tomato."

I'm wondering whether the Gilbertie Tomato and the Gilbert Tomato might be the same tomato.

I believe Sal is also a member of Seed Savers Exchange so maybe he has offered it there in the past.

I'm also wondering if the Gilbert tomato and the Gilbertie tomato might be the same as Sal's family heirloom tomato.

Anyway, if anyone knows more about the Gilbert Plum Tomato and/or the Gilbertie Tomato I would love to hear what you know about them.

Thank you

[Redbaron]

Why not just do a side by side growout?

[jennifer28]

Well the odds are that someone here at TVille was the person who originally distributed the seed or knows the person who was the original distributor of the seed. And if that's the case, they probably know where it came from. I could ask Sal what he knows about it, but the thing is that he grows many other crops and sells all kinds of seedlings so he probably only knows about the seeds from his family.

Also I don't really LOVE paste tomatoes, so I don't want to grow them out.

[carolyn137]

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...t_Italian_Plum

Note the size as well as the fact that Neil got it from someone in PA/

Looking in my 2012 SSE YEarbook I see someone offering Gilbertie Paste, seeds from Geza in Hungary, who trades widely, and the size is 4-6 oz. I do think I remember Gilbertie Paste being listed in older yearbooks but it's too darn dark here near my computer to go on a search mission right now.

Out of curiosity I pulled out the 2000 Yearbook, Neil got his Gilbert in 1999 and he lists it as Gilbert Italian Plum in the 2000 and the woman he got it from also listed it as coming from Italy early in the century and confirmed the large size as being in the one pound range. This I do not see as being a paste variety

I haven't looked much but I haven't seen anything listed as just Gilbert Tomato.

[carolyn137]

http://www.google.com/#q=gilbertie+p...iw=757&bih=403

Now I remember the Gilbertie Paste tomato and it's a long red similar to Opalka, and many other long red paste varieties as to size and shape.

Lots of links to read and pictures to look at as well.

Carolyn

[jennifer28]

Thank you Carolyn. The long red tomato that does kind of look like the Opalka is similar to the one Sal sells. I'm interested in finding out how it got to High Mowing seeds.
I like to know the correct histories on tomatoes - and I know that they can be confused - makes me think of the conflicting Estler and Radiator Charlie stories about the Mortgage Lifter.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by jennifer28

Thank you Carolyn. The long red tomato that does kind of look like the Opalka is similar to the one Sal sells. I'm interested in finding out how it got to High Mowing seeds.
I like to know the correct histories on tomatoes - and I know that they can be confused - makes me think of the conflicting Estler and Radiator Charlie stories about the Mortgage Lifter.

I just did a long post answering your questions and POOF, my DSL line cut out and yes, I now know the origin of Gilbertie Paste.

But right now del Portro and Djokovic are in the third set at the ATP Finals in London and I just have to get back to the front room to see who wins and goes on to the Final tomorrow.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Darn, I just went to find a link and lost what I just started and on top of that either AOL or Verizon is having fun today b'c I keep losing my DSL line. Yes, I have a backup dial in but don't want to go there.

I first looked in the 2001 SSE YEarbook where I found someone from NYS listing it and saying seeds were from High Mowing in 2000. And said original seeds were from Teresa Gilbertie of Westport, CT. So I went to high Mowing and Tim just says he's been offering it since 1996.

So I went to my 1995 SSE Yearbook and found a listing for Gilbertie from someone in CT but the SSE code doesn't match Teresa Gilbertie herself, described it correctly and said it was an heirloom of Teresa Gilbertie of Westport, CT.

So she's the original source of seeds. You might ask Sal if he knew or knows a Teresa Gilbertie who was growing tomatoes in that time frame.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=14508

Above is a link to a thread about Mortgage Lifters here at Tville. I don't see any conflict at all between the Estler one and the Radiator Charlie one.

There's lots of documentation, newspaper articles, etc., presence of the Estler one in Australia, to show that the Estler one was from the 1920's.

The only documentation for Charlie Byles is what he told Jeff McCormack when Jeff interviewed him and that's the story that has been oft repeated.

Notice that I posted in the above thread quite recently.

There may be another thread about Mortgage Lifters in the Legacy Forum, I didn't take the time to look, but all of them would have said the same as the above one, that is, the Estler one came several years before the Charlie Byles one.

And you'll see that I chimed in whenever the Estler one was mentioned since I knew the Estler info from what had been sent to Chuck Wyatt. and I don't remember where, but someplace there are links to the newpaper articles, etc.

Hope that helps,

Carolyn

Carolyn

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

. . . Above is a link to a thread about Mortgage Lifters here at Tville. I don't see any conflict at all between the Estler one and the Radiator Charlie one. . . There may be another thread . . . but all of them would have said the same as the above one, that is, the Estler one came several years before the Charlie Byles one.

Not all . . .

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=3678

Whether the alleged 1922 date for the Estler's Mortgage Lifter was the reason for Jeff McCormack's doubts I don't know -- but there is surely a problem with a 1922 date for the origin of a tomato that is a descendant of a 1932 tomato (Pritchard)?