Forum area for discussing hybridizing tomatoes in technical terms and information pertinent to trait/variety specific long-term (1+ years) growout projects.
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#1 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 3,194
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Hi all,
I crossed a full-sized indeterminate heart with a micro tom. I wanted to use the micro as the female, because all full-sized seedlings would indicate a successful cross. But the micro flowers were so small & delicate no crosses took. I then used the heart as the female and got fruit. I remember the heart's flowers were big, with a honking sturdy pistil that had to be 2 mm thick. Now I'm looking at the hopefully F1 seedlings, with no way to tell if the cross was successful until fruiting time. But I notice the flowers are small and delicate like the micro's. Admittedly, the seedlings are young; about 6 1/2 weeks old (the first seedling flowered at 36 days old), and the indeterminate heart was outside for months before my crossing. So my question is, do these little flowers indicate my cross was successful, or do I still have to wait for the fruit to tell? Nan |
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#2 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 586
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The first flowers a tomato plant produces are often smaller than some later ones. You'll probably have to wait a bit longer to be sure. The large-fruit traits are recessive to the small ones, so you'll be pretty certain once you start seeing fruit.
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#3 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 3,194
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<sigh>
Well, they've set fruit, so I guess it won't be too long now. Thanks for the reply, Darren! Nan |
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#4 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 5,931
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Hi Nan
what are the trusses like? can you post a picture KarenO |
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#5 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 3,194
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Here are some flower clusters; my hand is behind the cluster with fruit:
RAE-F1A_resized(1).jpg RAE-F1B_resized.jpg My hand is behind a teeny cluster: RAE-F1C_resized.jpg Here is a leaf showing both the female's naturally droopy leaf and the male's naturally rolled leaf: RAE-F1D_resized.jpg |
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#6 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 5,931
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if your cross wasn't successful, by that do you mean if the bloom was already self pollinated before you emasculated it? If that was the case, your F1 will just be a normal version of the mother plant, your indeterminate heart. Or did I misunderstand what you are asking?
Are the newly forming fruits hearts? Are both parents reliably stable OPs? KarenO |
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#7 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 3,194
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The fruits are not heart-shaped currently. They're small and round as of yet, the biggest is about 1/2". AMH is a pink heart, and HM is a red elongated cherry with a point. But my knowledge of the relative shape dominance in tomatoes is not advanced; the only thing I know I can count on in the F1 is red fruit. ![]() Both parents are stable OPs. Nan |
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#8 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 5,931
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no such thing as too excited.
A home gardener making her own cross is a labor of love and an exercise in patience as well I would know ![]() I think your little round fruits show your cross took. I know a bit about hearts and they are always "hearty" right from the get-go I think your F1 will be a small but likely larger than cherry sized round red. time will tell. Enjoy your project , the real fun starts at F2. KO |
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#9 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 3,194
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#10 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Posts: 6,794
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Nan, I have spent a lot of time looking at flowers and do they tell something about the fruit to come. They are good clues, not every clue is a good clue (first flower petal number was not a good clue for me this year) but there is for sure something in the size of your flowers. If you remember the mother flower was different, then it is a sign that you made the cross alright. And if the fruits are round, I agree with KarenO, baby fruit will show a pointy gene even if the mature fruit hide it.
Good for you, growing your cross in the fall and winter. ![]() ![]() |
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#11 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 3,194
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Karen and Bower, you made my day!
![]() ![]() Ecstatic ![]() Nan |
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#12 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 1,940
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Congratulations! Remember you don't need many F1s as a lot of the diversity starts with random assortment of chromosomes into the F2 (as @KarenO mentioned). Good luck!
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#13 |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Plantation, Florida zone 10
Posts: 9,283
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Go Nan go!
(Suggestion - to check earlier whether a future cross took, you could always grow a plant of the mama next to the hopeful F1to be able to compare.) |
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#14 | |
Tomatovillian™
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 5,931
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It’s hard to grow indoors In winter successfully. Concentrating your efforts on one or two of your healthiest plants may be better than trying to spread your limited light resources among more. All you need from this F1 grow out is at most maybe 50-100 F2 seeds to plant in spring , not a crop of tomatoes. Happy for you that your cross was successful ![]() KarenO |
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#15 |
Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a
Posts: 21,169
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Nan, I do hope your cross was a success but I'm one who does not hold that there is a correlation with flower structure.
So if you cross again, please go to this website http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/ And under Culture take a look at how to make crosses. http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/Tomato/xingtom.html I think it's better to select for leaf form since PL is recessive to RL. That means using as your female receptor plant one that is PL, and using pollen from an RL to cross with. And bagging any one cluster to pretect it from any X pollinations. Female is PL, male pollen is RL, so look from saved seeds for those that are RL, which will indicate that the cross took. Plant out those saved seeds again, to be sure and that since not all ovules,seeds to be, in the tomato ovary will always be fertilized. Others have used this method with great results. Who is Keith Mueller? He got his MS degree with Dr. Randy Gardner in NC and Randy has bred many many wonderful varieties,he's a professional. Some of his are the Mountain series, Mountain Magic, Plum Regal, Smarty, etc. Keith knows more tomato genetics than almost anyone I know. Look at Keith's site again and please note all the wonderful varieties that he has bred as well. Just a suggestion to consider if you want to do more crosses. Carolyn
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Carolyn |
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