Good seed germination from own saved seeds/my method.

[michael johnson]

There has been a lot of discussion and germination methods and measured germination percentages from own saved seed just lately with interesting results.

I know I shall run into a lot of flak here- from all those who favour the fermentation method in jars of water etc,but I firmly believe that this method does more harm than good .

My own tried and trusted method, along with lots of other tomato growers in the UK, ensures almost 100% germination for up to nine or ten years after.

Take the selected variety of tomatoes- put them on a shelf to over ripen a bit until the skin of the tomato goes a little bit wrinkly- but not bad or rotting, preferably in a sunlit window,this also helps to thoroughly ripen the seed inside - which is very important first.

Then slit the side of the tomato with a sharp knife and squeeze the seeds out into a plastic tea strainer, or flour seive- preferably the metal mesh type, but failing that plastic mesh will do, then with a slow trickle of water from the kitchen tap (dribble ) running into the strainer- rub the seeds into it with the finger tips for about 2-3 minutes until most of the gell and stuff is rubbed off, then carefully strike the strainer on the side of the sink a couple of times to get rid of the water droplets, lay out on a flat surface a polythene sandwich bag then turn the sieve upside down and stike it firmly onto the polythene bag in the centre- the seeds will then all fly off onto the bag in one operation.

Take the bag carefully into a drying room ( main living roometc, ) and place on a flat shelf , then with the forefinger re-arrange the seeds to seprate them up as much as you can, and leave for at least two weeks to dry, then easily sluff them off onto a sheet of paper for bagging up, I much prefer the little polythene zip bags for storage.

Then place in an airtight plastic box (tupperware etc ) with snap on lid, and store in a cool part of the fridge (not the freezer section ) where they can stay for up to 9-10 years using as you go, pepper seeds also last for four years or more using this method.

My results of almost 100% germination after 9 yrs speak for themselves, with absolutly no problem whatsoever with pathogens and all the other fears etc, during this time.

A lot less fuss and palaver, cleaner quicker method, no smelly water fermentation etc, it works ok for me.

There will of course still be die-hard fermentation individuals who swear that their method is better- but my method and results plus storage afterwards speaks reams in its favour- seeds also seem to wake up better after coming out of cold storage - it seems tomake them think its spring.

[carolyn137]

Michael,

There's absolutely nothing at all wrong with your seed saving method and many others do it the same way you do.

That you have not seen any seedborne diseases is also fortunate.

Germination rates for seeds processed by fermentation can also show such excellent germination within the same time period you speak to.

However, in England you do not have problems with Fusarium, which is a problem for many here in the southern part of the US, as well as some other systemic diseases that are not common in England. And there are the foliage diseases, all of which are known to be transmitted via seed. Same for many other pathogens.

Many of us who list varieties with SSE prefer to send out seeds that have been fermented since it is considered a courtesy to do so, not just for fellow SSE members, but also many of us give away seeds and share with others.

I am not one who trade seeds, for many reasons, although there are a few exceptions made from time to time, especially when someone sends me a new heirloom not previously known and I offer back seeds for whatever I have that the person may want.


The fact that you have seen no seedborne transmission of disease is fine for you, but does not reflect the observations made by many others.

Fermentation cannot and does not eliminate all pathogens since many, mostly the bacterial and viral ones, are in the endosperm of the seed, but it does lower the exterior pathogen burden and since infection is a quantitative process, it does lessen that development.

There are many here who received my Red Brandywine seeds in the past two years, from the two general seed giveaways I made of about 300 varieties at GW, and found germination in the 80-90% range, as an examp-le, and those were seeds saved in 1993, and fermented, per usual.

Over the years I've saved seeds from well over 1000 varieties and my experience tells me that not all varieties have the same longevity as to viability.

So as I said above, your method is known and used by many, but I remain a fermentation devotee b'c of the known pathogen contamination of adventitious pathogens to the exterior and the known lessening of such by fermentation, since I do share seeds with others in a variety of ways.

In addition, fermented seeds have less debris sticking to them and thus are easier to handle and sort and dispense.

So each person needs to look at what their own seed activities are with respect to home use only, or listing at SSE or seed trading, or whatever, and feel comfortable with themselves as to whether they have or have not done the best they can do to prevent tomato infections to others, based on where they garden and the known pathogens in that area.

In my early years as an SSE member I used to receive seeds taken directly form fruits and placed on newspaper or towels or toilet tissue to dry and I'd just tear off a piece of supporting material and they all germinated just fine. And I have no idea if they had pathogens of certain kinds, b'c only certain pathogens are a problem in my area.

In summary, I don't know why you thought your method would be different from what others use, nor why you thought it would bother those who prefer to use fermentation, such as myself.

What it comes down to is not what an individual sees in his or her own garden re saved seed and possible disease, but what one might be sending to others re pathogen contamination without an attempt to lessen that pathogen burden by use of fermentation, or other treatments such as TSP, hydrogen peroxide, etc., althoug fermentation is most natural and less caustic than other treatments.

Infection from seedbore pathogens is quantitative and conditions for infection do differ in different geographic areas depending on so many variables, including the weather in a given season.

[michael johnson]

I am afraid that we do indeed have fusarium wilt in all its forms and strains over here in the UK, as well as most of the other deseases, Tmv, Cladisporium- several strains, Ber, and a whole host of other tomato related deseases, horn worms, the very occasional colarado beetle, every leaf mould ever to infest tomatoes, but we normaly treat them as best we can with whatever is available, and most of all practice good husbandry towards our plants.

And I only ever save seed from none deseased plants or any that show any signs of imperfections.

As I said before everybody to their own method and choices, and I did expect a bit of flak from those with differing views on saving seeds, but thats life, and I want to leave it at that , as I simply thought it would add a bit of interest on different results and opinions on seed saving. 8)

[carolyn137]

and I did expect a bit of flak from those with differing views

Michael, I said I thought the method you used was perfectly OK, I didn't disagree with you.

And I would prefer to think that my comments were directed towards an alternative view, rather than being seen as "flak" b/c I had an alternative viewpoint.

Fusarium is found primarily where soils don't freeze deeply and for long periods of time in the winter, and yes, in the warmer areas of England Fusarium can be found, but is not a major problem; I do have English friends who grow tomatoes. TMV has long since disappeared from most backyard grown tomatoes since starting about 20 years ago almost all tobacco grown is TMV tolerant, but not tobacco from Turkey.

TMV is these days mostly found in large commercial greenhouse operations where it is transmitted mechanically, not via insects, to young transplants and even that is becoming less common.

And BER is not a disease, it's a physiological condition.

And onward we go.

[SelfSufficient1]

I have done it both ways(I always did it your way Micheal until I learned about fermentation) and they always germinated fine for me too. I never knew that it might help out with diseases to ferment them and appreciate you telling us about that Carolyn although I had planned to make sure I fermented any seeds I saved this year mainly because everyone here seems to do it with their seeds.
Micheal I too see nothing wrong with your method and would like to see a study done on the relation of fermented seeds to disease though I have learned just from reading on here that Carolyn really does seem to know what she is talking about.

[carolyn137]

Self,

There are many many studies that have been done on the effect of fermentation on seedborne pathogens.

The pioneer in the field was Dr. Helen, Ii think her last name is Dillard, who worked at the Cornell/USDA station in Geneva, NY and had several contracts from either Heinz or Campbell to study just that topic.

And it was from her that I initially learned most of what I did about seedborne pathogens and fermentation, along with doing a lot of related research online and talking with others.

Tell me how many sites you go to online or in books where fermentation is NOT suggested? Even if you look at certain seed catalogs they'll say that their seeds are fermented and some go on to say that TSP is used after fermentation, but that's primarily for TMV which is important for their commercial clients re what I said above about TMV.

Or go to those sites where commercial seed production is explained, and again, you'll see that the first step is fermentation.

So if you wish to, you too can go to Google and research fermentation and how it lessens the pathogen burden on the seed coat of seeds. Or go to various sites such as Victory Seeds, SSE ( I think), Seeds Trust, you name it, for many sites discuss how to ferment seeds and why it's done. Not all do it the same way, but the end result is the same.

[michael johnson]

Carolyn- sorry- I usedthe word Flak, very lightly perhaps I should have had a better choice of words.

In answer to self sufficiant, personaly I have always thought that with my method the slow trickle of tap water over the seeds whilst proccessing them, which does contain a small amount of Chlorine gas is sufficiant tokill any pathogens on the seed surface,

Chlorine gas evaporates into the air within seconds of coming out of the tap, but in this case its there long enough to do the trick, chlorine gas kills all known germs and simular, but it does not harm the seeds.

I base my theory-and it is only a theory, on the fact that all the bad to very bad seeds I have ever had in the last few years have all been done by the fermentation method- you can tell that just by looking at them,whilst on the other hand all the ones I have received / and sent out that have been non- fermented have all been good ( never had a bad one yet !! ) despite the seed age.

I still firmly believe that fermenting them does more harm than good to the seed casing , Unless you are an expert at it ( of which -many are )- but by this method mistakes can very easily be made , by leaving them in the water jar too long so that rot starts to set in, for those that experiance smelly water- this can only be due to bacteria being present- which cant be good for the seeds , plus also there will be no chlorine present in any fermenting pots about five seconds after you put the water in, my method there is a constant trickle of it whilst doing the seeds.


Whereas on the other hand using my method there is very little room for mistakes- its all perfectly straight forward and simple to do, usualy seeds done this way have a very fine orangy coloured coating on them- I believe that this coating is the plants way of protecting the seeds from harm until ready to germinate.

I think that one other biggest single mistake that people make when using either method, is not using fruit with dead ripe seeds in them, its no use using fruit that has only just turned red- they need to stand in a warm dry place for a week or more to let the seeds ripen more, or better still- leave them on the plant until they are nearly ready to drop off - then you will get realy ripe seed.

I once or twice left ripening tomatoes on a shelf far too long, and when I cut them open the seeds were germinating inside the tomato- so bang goes the theory that the gell round the seeds contains a germination preventative.

But everyone to their own ideas and methods- its a free world, my only hope was that I could perhaps hope that Vendors of some of the bad to very bad seed that I have been sent in the past- would read this and produce viable full germination seed as a result of better proccessing & storage,

I still feel that any tomato seed offered should be fresh seed only- from the previous years crops, this gives the person recieving them the very best possible chance of success- with very little come backs.

[jerseyjohn61]

I've never saved seeds before, but will begin
this summer. Am likely to try a few methods
and your's Michael, will be one of them. Thanks
for the detailed descriptions....JJ61

[SelfSufficient1]

Very interesting. Thanks Carolyn.
Micheal, I find your theory very interesting too especially about the clorine and I can see your point on the fermentation being done wrong. I have also cut open a tomato and found seeds already germinated inside.
All very interesting points on both sides and I may try both ways and see which one I like.

[mms]

Hello all,
My Dad saved Tomato seed every year when I was growing up, and he never fermented any of them, and yes he always had PLENTY of Tomato plants. If you came to his house in May I think you were required to take home a big roll of wet newspaper that contained a dozen Tomato plants.

So yes it works, but so does fermenting, and it is not difficult at all. The hardest part is seperating the seeds when you spread them out to dry. I don't let them touch while drying and I rarely have any seeds that are stuck together after they are bagged. Of course I would have to do the same thing if I didn't ferment.

Anyway, the point I am trying to make is that fermenting is not that much work, and as Carolyn said, it is considered to be a common courtesy when trading or sharing. So if you decide not to ferment, and you decide to share, be sure and tell the recipients of your seeds that they were not fermented.

If there is anything that can be done so easily that will possibly cut down on wilt, mosaic virus, or any other nasty little bug, I'm all for it. And if the chlorine in our water helps, I'll wash them twice just to be safe!

Thanks,
MMS

[carolyn137]

Just a few points.

Recommendations to use chlorine to treat seeds is 10% Clorox ( one part Clorox to 9 parts water), which most folks have access to, and tap water treated with chlorine has nowhere's near that concentration of chlorine. If it did it would be terrible in terms of health and other issues.

Seeds inside of a tomato are mature when you see the first blush of color at the blossom end. It isn't necessary to let them ripen up to dead ripe to get mature seeds.

Not an original observation by me at all, but it comes in handy to know that when frost threatens late in the year and there are varieties that you must save seeds from for one reason or another, it's good to know that you don't have to have totally ripe fruits to get mature seeds.

Actually Tom Wagner uses totally unripe fruits treated with TSP to get seeds and it works for him, but it hasn't for me or many others.

There is a germination inhibitor in the gel around the seed, as is true with many kinds of seeds other than tomato seed. The inhibitor is part of the natural life cycle of the tomato and prevents seed germination when conditions are not positive for germination and plant growth, as would be seen when fruits drop to the ground in the Fall.

Seeds sometimes do germinate inside fruits, and the conditions there are just lovely for them to do so. The bad actors in that regard are the soft fleshed varieties such as the large beefsteak gold/red bicolors.

And not a season goes by that someone doesn't post a picture of a wee plantlet growing out of a ripe fruit purchased at the store. Or seen germinated seeds when cutting those fruits. In those cases it can usually be traced back to long term storage of those fruits, which are usually shipped in fruits, at moderate temperatures.

[SelfSufficient1]

Yes, I remember you saying in other posts that the tomatoes only need a little bit of color on them to get mature seed from them, that really is something good to know.
I am glad you answered about the clorine. So if we wanted to save seeds Micheals way, we could if we rinsed them with a solution that was 10% Clorox and this should solve the problem?
It would also be safe to say that that the germination inhibitors around the tomato seeds only last so long? And maybe this is why Micheals way works because by the time the next season rolls the inhibitors are not longer working.

[carolyn137]

Self,

Very few folks that I know use 10% chlorine treatment on unfermented seeds.

They use it as an adjunct to fermentation since it seems to have some effect on those bacterial pathogens that might be in the seed endosperm while fermentation seems to be better at lessening fungal pathogen contamination on the exterior.

Using just clorox also does not remove the gel from around the seeds so that you get the nice fluffy seeds you see when you buy seed, wihc are usually easier to handle. It also does not give you a lowered pH, as fermentation does, which is said to help with inactivation of viruses. For this last bit I've not seen any hard data.

Why don't you try several ways and see what you're most comfortable with.

[SelfSufficient1]

Thanks, I see what you are trying to say. I have done it both ways but haven't really kept track of how the seeds did afterwards plus it was with different varieties. I would like to try both ways with the same variety.
Anyway, all very interesting and I am glad you are here to take the time to explain it all.

[travis]

"... plus also there will be no chlorine present in any fermenting pots about five seconds after you put the water in ..." [m. johnson]

Really?

I doubt this is the case as it takes far longer than a few seconds for chlorine to disperse out of drinking water. This can be proven by testing the water with a chlorine test kit like the ones used by the local health department.

But that's a moot point, because as Carolyn points out, common practice for chlorine treatment of seeds employs concentrations of chlorine much higher than found in tap water regardless of whether it just came out of the tap or has sat in a class container for an hour or a day.

Do whatever works for you, but I wouldn't be so quick to assign a superior ranking to a seed washing/saving procedure that remains unproven across as broad an application as the fermenting procedure enjoys.

PV