Fish Lake Oxheart Orange?

[creister]

I recieved seeds in a trade for FLOH in a trade. The pictures show what the fruits came out as. I contacted the person I traded with, and he said the only yellow/orange he has grown in the last two years is KBX. Before that it was Dr. Wyches and KBX. So I am thinking cross pollination as the likely cause .

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by creister

I recieved seeds in a trade for FLOH in a trade. The pictures show what the fruits came out as. I contacted the person I traded with, and he said the only yellow/orange he has grown in the last two years is KBX. Before that it was Dr. Wyches and KBX. So I am thinking cross pollination as the likely cause .

And I'm thinking he possibly sent you some mislabelled seeds.

What you show looks to me like KBX and was the leaf form PL, as it should be for KBX or RL. Dr. Wyches is a lighter yellow, not so much orange.

Whether it was the orginal Red FLO or the pink version, I can't really see any X pollination giving what you show, but am I always right? Heck no, so lets see what some others might say.

And if you do show an F1 hybrid be sure to save seeds and then you'll definitely know what you do or don't have when you put out several plants from those F2 saved seeds and see the results.

Carolyn

[creister]

Carolyn,

Here are some photos of the foliage. The fruits appear more heart shape than beefsteak.

[creister]

Here is the other photo.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by creister

Here is the other photo.

I looked at both pictures you showed, several times, and couldn't see any fruits at all, then went back to your picture of all the orange fruits, and couldn't see any heart shaped ones there either.

Honest,I do have my close up reading glasses on when online or reading books, magazines I sub to and similar.

Maybe others can see what I can't, so we shall see.

Carolyn

[creister]

I have some more fruit to harvest. When I pick them I'll take photos that show the shape better.

[ginger2778]

Those plants are regular leafed. Not KBX.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

Those plants are regular leafed. Not KBX.

Looks the same to me Marsha.

I've been paying attention more to fruit shape and even if the presumed FLOH is the original red, or the variant pink, I can't see X pollination leading to an orange.

So is it possible that you were sent seeds for Dr. Wyche?

Frst Tania's page and then Google IMAGES search,

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...che%27s_Yellow



https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...71.qw29pAjgIIM

In any case be sure to save seeds from those fruits and if it is the result of X pollination those fruits would be F1 hybrids, so the seeds you save would be the F2 seeds and if you sowed those and put out many plants you'd see if all were the same or different plants gave different fruits, which would indicate gene segregation and a X pollination.

You also said that you had heart shaped fruits. I didn't see that in your first picture of fruits, so that might help as well.

Carolyn

[b54red]

I am the one that sent you the seed and I have grown out from the same batch of seeds and got Fish Lake Oxheart. I got my seed from Carolyn and saved seed from several fruits over the first season and one of them may have crossed with KBX; but from my records of my bed layout I would guess it is a cross with Pineapple. In both beds where I planted FLO the plant right across the four foot bed from it was Pineapple. The only other tomato that could have created that look would be the lone KBX which was two beds down and probably 25 feet away. I did plant Fish two years later and didn't keep records of my bed layout that year so it is possible it could have crossed with KBX then because I probably saved a few seed that year also. I always save from multiple plants and multiple tomatoes and I do sometimes get some crosses. From the look of those fruit I would guess it is a Pineapple X Fish Lake cross but you never know. I really like Fish Lake Oxheart but haven't grown it in the last few years as I have found that I like Donskoi much better and I have been simplifying and narrowing down the number of varieties that I plant. Since every tomato I plant now is a graft it is just so much easier to keep everything straight by using fewer varieties and I just don't want to use up my precious space with anything but my favorites.

This year one of my JD's Special C Tex plants is producing beautiful orange looking fruits that are anything but a black tomato but I'm pretty sure it is a cross because the plant has gotten gray mold just like the other three JD's that are in the garden from the same batch of seed. The plant looks identical to the others and is actually planted right next to one of the other JD's yet the fruit is totally different in color. I haven't tasted one of them yet but if it is as good as it looks I will probably grow out the seed. I know that in this case I could have definitely gotten it crossed with a KBX because last year my most productive JD's was right across the bed from my most productive KBX and I saved seed from multiple fruits off that plant. This cross is producing larger fruit than the others and they definitely have a golden look but darker. The leaves are definitely regular leaf so maybe it is a cross with Dr. Wyches from another JD's plant I saved seed from. JD's is one of my favorite tomatoes so I usually grow at least three or four and try to save seed from multiple plants each year as I do from all of the varieties that I have multiple plants of that year.

I do get some crosses almost every year when it comes time to pick the fruit. I also get some crosses occasionally from bought seed from reputable seed companies and have even had crosses be the only seed in an envelope of seed from them. When I start seed I usually start many of each variety I plan to graft and I usually start seed from different years of seed saving. This year I also have a Brandywine Sudduth's plant that is producing red tomatoes but all the other Sudduth's plants are producing pinks. The plants all look identical to each other except for the color of the fruit from that one plant. That and the JD's are the only crosses I have run across this year out of the approximately 55 plants that are producing fruit right now and almost all of them are from my saved seeds. I do have more plants that I set out more recently and hopefully they will be producing before the end of the season and I will be watching for more crosses. I do have a lot of bees working my blossoms when I check the plants but they are usually those tiny little bees but sometimes regular honey bees or those big black bees.

Sorry for the mix up.

Bill

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by b54red

I am the one that sent you the seed and I have grown out from the same batch of seeds and got Fish Lake Oxheart. I got my seed from Carolyn and saved seed from several fruits over the first season and one of them may have crossed with KBX; but from my records of my bed layout I would guess it is a cross with Pineapple. In both beds where I planted FLO the plant right across the four foot bed from it was Pineapple. The only other tomato that could have created that look would be the lone KBX which was two beds down and probably 25 feet away. I did plant Fish two years later and didn't keep records of my bed layout that year so it is possible it could have crossed with KBX then because I probably saved a few seed that year also. I always save from multiple plants and multiple tomatoes and I do sometimes get some crosses. From the look of those fruit I would guess it is a Pineapple X Fish Lake cross but you never know. I really like Fish Lake Oxheart but haven't grown it in the last few years as I have found that I like Donskoi much better and I have been simplifying and narrowing down the number of varieties that I plant. Since every tomato I plant now is a graft it is just so much easier to keep everything straight by using fewer varieties and I just don't want to use up my precious space with anything but my favorites.

This year one of my JD's Special C Tex plants is producing beautiful orange looking fruits that are anything but a black tomato but I'm pretty sure it is a cross because the plant has gotten gray mold just like the other three JD's that are in the garden from the same batch of seed. The plant looks identical to the others and is actually planted right next to one of the other JD's yet the fruit is totally different in color. I haven't tasted one of them yet but if it is as good as it looks I will probably grow out the seed. I know that in this case I could have definitely gotten it crossed with a KBX because last year my most productive JD's was right across the bed from my most productive KBX and I saved seed from multiple fruits off that plant. This cross is producing larger fruit than the others and they definitely have a golden look but darker. The leaves are definitely regular leaf so maybe it is a cross with Dr. Wyches from another JD's plant I saved seed from. JD's is one of my favorite tomatoes so I usually grow at least three or four and try to save seed from multiple plants each year as I do from all of the varieties that I have multiple plants of that year.

I do get some crosses almost every year when it comes time to pick the fruit. I also get some crosses occasionally from bought seed from reputable seed companies and have even had crosses be the only seed in an envelope of seed from them. When I start seed I usually start many of each variety I plan to graft and I usually start seed from different years of seed saving. This year I also have a Brandywine Sudduth's plant that is producing red tomatoes but all the other Sudduth's plants are producing pinks. The plants all look identical to each other except for the color of the fruit from that one plant. That and the JD's are the only crosses I have run across this year out of the approximately 55 plants that are producing fruit right now and almost all of them are from my saved seeds. I do have more plants that I set out more recently and hopefully they will be producing before the end of the season and I will be watching for more crosses. I do have a lot of bees working my blossoms when I check the plants but they are usually those tiny little bees but sometimes regular honey bees or those big black bees.

Sorry for the mix up.

Bill

Bill, this is interesting. If FLO (RL) crossed with KBX(PL) then the F1 would definitely be RL, because that is dominant. I am not sure enough about genetics to speak to the dominance of orange, or bicolor flesh over pink. Hopefully one of the genetics people here will join in. I think we can figure out which crossed base on how it appears.( phenotype)
Carolyn, I do see a few that are heart shaped, and the foliage is a little droopy and wispy.

[b54red]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

Bill, this is interesting. If FLO (RL) crossed with KBX(PL) then the F1 would definitely be RL, because that is dominant. I am not sure enough about genetics to speak to the dominance of orange, or bicolor flesh over pink. Hopefully one of the genetics people here will join in. I think we can figure out which crossed base on how it appears.( phenotype)
Carolyn, I do see a few that are heart shaped, and the foliage is a little droopy and wispy.

I remember Fish Lake Oxheart having much less wispy foliage than most heart varieties I have tried over the years.

Found another weird cross in one of my Brandywine Cowlicks plants. I must say the flavor was fantastic so I may save seed and replant it since it is at least in the top ten for flavor so far this year. It too was almost orange or at least red. I peeled some skin off and it was definitely yellow so one of the fruit that I took seed from last year had obviously crossed with a red or with KBX as that was the only gold in my garden last year. I guess I'll call it Orange Cowlick's or Red Cowlick's. I hardly ever got a cross like this until the last few years as the bee activity has surged in my garden.

Bill

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

Bill, this is interesting. If FLO (RL) crossed with KBX(PL) then the F1 would definitely be RL, because that is dominant. I am not sure enough about genetics to speak to the dominance of orange, or bicolor flesh over pink. Hopefully one of the genetics people here will join in. I think we can figure out which crossed base on how it appears.( phenotype)
Carolyn, I do see a few that are heart shaped, and the foliage is a little droopy and wispy.

I am not a genetics expert but I can share the following.

There are about 200 gold/red bicolors known and almost all of them where seeds were brought to the US by immigrants primarily from Germany where the initial mutation is felt to have taken place, and nearby areas such as Switzerland and Belgium.

Last I knew no one knew the genes of gold/red bicolor heirlooms, but consider the following.

That is, the origin of Lucky Cross and Little Lucky, both gold/red bicolors.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Lucky_Cross

Looking at the history I'd like to speak to the variety Tad, which yes, I named. If you go to Tania's site you won't find it listed. A Google link brings up one link to Craig's blog but it's not there.

Another link to here at Tville helps a bit more.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=2342

Tad made no selections at all as mentioned in the above link. What he did was to make a three way cross and sent it to me, with a chromosome map, told me what he was looking for and said I had a 1/64 chance of finding it.

Luckily I at first put out 12 plants and Got it. told Tad what I had and offered to send him seeds from it and also sent seeds to Craig as well since the Brandywine cross occurred in his garden.

Tad is a small yellow with red stripes and is not a bicolor at all. Tad said he wanted to upsize it, but never did so contrary to the claims of one person, Craig and I are the only two with seeds for it, since while Tad had bred some other varieties and SSE listed them he had a Ph.D in plant breeding and ended up in CA where he had nothing to do with tomatoes.

So what's my point here? Yes, one of the 3 parents of Tad was Old German, a typical gold/red bicolor but Tad itself was not and never did Tad Smith tell me that the variety Tad should be a bicolor.

So how did Brandywine X Tad end up giving us Lucky Cross and Little Lucky, and further selections also gave striped varieties such as Lee's Don's Double Delight, which I offered in a recent seed offer.

Marsha, all to say that I'm not aware of anyone understanding the genetics of Gold/red bicolors.

You also asked:

(I am not sure enough about genetics to speak to the dominance of orange, or bicolor flesh over pink. Hopefully one of the genetics people here will join in.)

All I can say is that genes for darker colors , meaning darker colored varieties, are usually dominant over lighter colored varieties/ And since the genetics of gold/red bicolors is, I think, not known, there you go.

How does one explain this one?

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Captain_Lucky

or this one

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Ananas_Noire

How does that old song I remember help explain the above?

http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/so...ryoflife.shtml

Yes, a mystery of life.

Carolyn

[creister]

The latest fruit I picked. The one on the bottom row appear to be somewhat heart shaped, but I am not an expert. The three on the top look more round or beefsteak. The flavor is fruity.

[carolyn137]

I want to share the following link with you which descibes how the variety Orange Minsk, a beefsteak, had two different shapes on the same plant.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Orange_Minsk_Heart

In the above case the presumed heart shaped ones that Jim sent me did turn out to be hearts, but there's another way one can also get hearts.

Fruit shapes can vary if there is high sustained heat and that is also dependent on what stage of ripening individual fruits are at when that heat occurs,

High sustained heat can also cause nipples to form on the fruits of varieties that don't have nipples as one of their traits.

Mother nature playing tricks on us, I guess.

If I you were I'd do what Jim did and that's to save seeds from individual fruits that you see as heart shaped and then next season put out several plants labelled from those indivdual fruits and see what you get.

Carolyn