Which tomato has the most diverse DNA?

rubbe87 · November 3, 2016

Would crossing wild species whit each other increase genetic diversity and would there be benefits? Has there been such attempts?

Worth1 · November 3, 2016

I have no idea but plants aren't people/animals and it is sometimes hard to make that realization.
Crossing can create hybrid vigor or create the worst of both species or strains.
With a hybrid self pollinating tomato it is a one shot deal if you cant stabilize it.
Right now I have two hybrid agave and I have no idea if the seeds from them would produce the same thing as most are just clones or collections of pups from the original cross.

Worth

Fred Hempel · November 3, 2016

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

dmforcier · November 3, 2016

Speaking of "genetic diversity" within a single species/variety is an oxymoron.

It is what it is, not what it is not.

Fred Hempel · November 3, 2016

If you are saying that "species" can not be diverse, I completely disagree. There is considerable genetic diversity within species, and some species are much more diverse than others. No species is uniform genetically, except when there is only one individual left in a species.

If you are using "species" as synonymous with "true-breeding variety" that is a mis-use of the term "species"

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmforcier

Speaking of "genetic diversity" within a single species/variety is an oxymoron.

It is what it is, not what it is not.

dmforcier · November 3, 2016

Did you miss my use of the word variety?

**carolyn137** · November 3, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmforcier

Did you miss my use of the word variety?

I didn't miss your use of the word variety and I agree completely with Fred.

How many times have you seen me and others post to never save seeds off just one plant of a variety,better two plants,even better three plants,etc.

There are SUBTLE mutations happening all the time with almost all varieties, DNA is not static,hence,preserving the genetic diversity within a variety.

Carolyn

Fred Hempel · November 4, 2016

Yes. Your writing species/variety is incorrect. It implies that they are the same. They are not.

All varieties of tomatoes are a part of the same, single, species.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmforcier

Did you miss my use of the word variety?

dmforcier · November 4, 2016

Oh back off. That was shorthand for "variety, a subset of species".

So, do you believe that the poster is asking which variety has the highest incidence of mutation?

If it's not that, then what does the question mean?

Jimbotomateo · November 4, 2016

Anyone want decaf?

Jimbo

Fusion_power · November 4, 2016

Must be late in the fall, everyone is getting grouchy. Grouchy is not impressed and wants all to keep hands off!

I'm going to give a bit better explanation. Think of a species as a set of programs that work together. Over a lot of time, those programs have been more or less optimized to continue producing the life form they code for. Cross that species with another life form, even if it is closely related, and a lot of those optimizations are going to be disabled. But that isn't the end of the story.

Sometimes one species has a program (gene) that another lacks. What if we could lift that gene out and insert it into the other species. Cross breeding can do this. We can move a gene for nematode tolerance out of a wild species and into the domestic tomato. Now we have almost all of our original tomato programs (genes) complete, but we added a new gene that codes for disease tolerance.

So to partially answer your question, increasing diversity for the sake of increasing diversity usually just breaks a lot of genetic programs. Targeted gene transfer from one species to another can add new capabilities and enhance another species.

Tomatoes - meaning the domesticated species - have very little genetic diversity. Crossing them with a wild species has the potential to improve production, disease tolerance, regional adaptation, and many other traits.

ContainerTed · November 4, 2016

The real question is whether or not it tastes good.

Fred Hempel · November 4, 2016

The poster asked about species, and that is what I assumed they meant. Particularly because they asked about which "wild species" might be best to use.

I do not think the question was about incidence of mutation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmforcier

Oh back off. That was shorthand for "variety, a subset of species".

So, do you believe that the poster is asking which variety has the highest incidence of mutation?

If it's not that, then what does the question mean?

**carolyn137** · November 4, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmforcier

Oh back off. That was shorthand for "variety, a subset of species".

So, do you believe that the poster is asking which variety has the highest incidence of mutation?

If it's not that, then what does the question mean?

Here was the original question

(Would crossing wild species whit each other increase genetic diversity and would there be benefits? Has there been such attempts?)

As the thread got longer other info as to genetic diversity was introduced in addition to crossing with wild species, not specified, and I for one,have no problems with that at all.

So no,the original question was not asking about the incidence of mutation,as I just said, the thread got off track,and why not since using germplasm from wild species is not the only way to be associated with genetic diversity.

My major growing field formanyyears was 250 ft long and 90 ft wide,rows 5 ft apart, and I'd go down the rows recording first blossom,first fruitset,indet or det,leaf form,first color on fruits,first ripe fruits, for each variety in my notebook.

But I never looked at the so called small details of a given variety.

One day I was at a website where Keith Mueller, I knew him from elsewhere, and this subject of diversity came up and he started discussing different internode lenghths, subtle changes in leaf form,time of ripening and more. I looked and he was right.

And well I remember what he said to me...something like those changes are there to see for those who have eyes.

Fusion here knows Keith well,so do I, he knows LOTS about tomato genetics and has also bred some very popular varieties.He got his MS degree with Dr.Randy Gardner at NCSU,one of the best breeders ever.

Here is Keith's website: I didn't take the time to see if he has any new updates.

http://www.kdcomm.net/~tomato/

You can spend hours there,as many of us have,checking out all that he shares with others.

Carolyn

JLJ_ · November 7, 2016

This thread has had some great answers -- but it might be worth mentioning one of the techniques used by Fred Pritchard that relates to harvesting benefits of genetic diversity -- if you're interested in century old work.

He was the person at the USDA who in 1918 developed the tomato Marvel from Merveille des Marches and crossed it with Livingstone's Globe to create the famous Marglobe -- which was very important in the 1930's because of greatly improved disease tolerance as well as high quality production for commercial and home uses -- and which is ancestor to many modern varieties.

(Pritchard also developed many other valuable varieties of tomato.)

He compared parent-candidate varieties for intravarietal variation with respect to the property he wanted to introduce or intensify, then worked by selection with a candidate variety that had high intravarietal variation to create a new variety with the target trait more prominently and consistently present. Often, he then crossed that new variety with other varieties that had complementary traits, stabilized the cross and released the new market variety.

I think that has practical application for the many home gardeners who attempt to develop an improved version of some variety by selection -- for earliness drought tolerance, etc . That is, before investing -- and possibly wasting -- many generations selecting, it might be wise to spend a season growing a large number of the variety they want to improve, determine whether it has a lot of intravarietal variation with respect to the target property and if not, use another variety, or use crossing techniques instead of or prior to using selection to achieve an improved variety.

Below is one place Pritchard discusses some of his work. Note that his work was utilitarian rather than theoretical or research oriented -- his goal being to produce tomatoes with desired traits as fast as possible and get them out to growers to grow or to further develop.
--------------------------

https://ia801703.us.archive.org/11/i...il1015prit.pdf

BULLETIN 1015, U. S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. March 28, 1922

DEVELOPMENT OF WILT-RESISTANT TOMATOES.

By Fred J. Pritchard, Physiologist, Office of Cotton, Truck, and Forage Crop
Disease Investigations.

November 3, 2016	#1
rubbe87 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2015 Location: sweden Posts: 26	Which tomato has the most diverse DNA? Would crossing wild species whit each other increase genetic diversity and would there be benefits? Has there been such attempts?

November 3, 2016	#4
dmforcier Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,825	Speaking of "genetic diversity" within a single species/variety is an oxymoron. It is what it is, not what it is not. __________________ Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out? - Will Rogers

November 3, 2016	#6
dmforcier Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,825	Did you miss my use of the word variety? __________________ Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out? - Will Rogers

November 4, 2016	#9
dmforcier Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,825	Oh back off. That was shorthand for "variety, a subset of species". So, do you believe that the poster is asking which variety has the highest incidence of mutation? If it's not that, then what does the question mean? __________________ Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out? - Will Rogers

November 4, 2016	#12
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	The real question is whether or not it tastes good. __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch

November 3, 2016	#2
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	I have no idea but plants aren't people/animals and it is sometimes hard to make that realization. Crossing can create hybrid vigor or create the worst of both species or strains. With a hybrid self pollinating tomato it is a one shot deal if you cant stabilize it. Right now I have two hybrid agave and I have no idea if the seeds from them would produce the same thing as most are just clones or collections of pups from the original cross. Worth

November 3, 2016	#3
Fred Hempel Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Sunol, CA Posts: 2,723	http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/conten....full.pdf+html

November 4, 2016	#10
Jimbotomateo Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Santa Maria California Posts: 1,014	Anyone want decaf? Jimbo

November 4, 2016	#11
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	Must be late in the fall, everyone is getting grouchy. Grouchy is not impressed and wants all to keep hands off! I'm going to give a bit better explanation. Think of a species as a set of programs that work together. Over a lot of time, those programs have been more or less optimized to continue producing the life form they code for. Cross that species with another life form, even if it is closely related, and a lot of those optimizations are going to be disabled. But that isn't the end of the story. Sometimes one species has a program (gene) that another lacks. What if we could lift that gene out and insert it into the other species. Cross breeding can do this. We can move a gene for nematode tolerance out of a wild species and into the domestic tomato. Now we have almost all of our original tomato programs (genes) complete, but we added a new gene that codes for disease tolerance. So to partially answer your question, increasing diversity for the sake of increasing diversity usually just breaks a lot of genetic programs. Targeted gene transfer from one species to another can add new capabilities and enhance another species. Tomatoes - meaning the domesticated species - have very little genetic diversity. Crossing them with a wild species has the potential to improve production, disease tolerance, regional adaptation, and many other traits.

November 7, 2016	#15
JLJ_ Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 759	This thread has had some great answers -- but it might be worth mentioning one of the techniques used by Fred Pritchard that relates to harvesting benefits of genetic diversity -- if you're interested in century old work. He was the person at the USDA who in 1918 developed the tomato Marvel from Merveille des Marches and crossed it with Livingstone's Globe to create the famous Marglobe -- which was very important in the 1930's because of greatly improved disease tolerance as well as high quality production for commercial and home uses -- and which is ancestor to many modern varieties. (Pritchard also developed many other valuable varieties of tomato.) He compared parent-candidate varieties for intravarietal variation with respect to the property he wanted to introduce or intensify, then worked by selection with a candidate variety that had high intravarietal variation to create a new variety with the target trait more prominently and consistently present. Often, he then crossed that new variety with other varieties that had complementary traits, stabilized the cross and released the new market variety. I think that has practical application for the many home gardeners who attempt to develop an improved version of some variety by selection -- for earliness drought tolerance, etc . That is, before investing -- and possibly wasting -- many generations selecting, it might be wise to spend a season growing a large number of the variety they want to improve, determine whether it has a lot of intravarietal variation with respect to the target property and if not, use another variety, or use crossing techniques instead of or prior to using selection to achieve an improved variety. Below is one place Pritchard discusses some of his work. Note that his work was utilitarian rather than theoretical or research oriented -- his goal being to produce tomatoes with desired traits as fast as possible and get them out to growers to grow or to further develop. -------------------------- https://ia801703.us.archive.org/11/i...il1015prit.pdf BULLETIN 1015, U. S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. March 28, 1922 DEVELOPMENT OF WILT-RESISTANT TOMATOES. By Fred J. Pritchard, Physiologist, Office of Cotton, Truck, and Forage Crop Disease Investigations.