Pine Needles in Media?

Cole_Robbie · November 11, 2014

I'm going to try to make my own grow mix for next year. I have access to a field of composted cow manure that has proven to be an excellent soil amendment. It has a lot of decomposed hay in it, so it's fluffy already, but I will probably mix something in with it for aeration. Perlite is the obvious answer, and I'll do that for any bedding plants I sell. For large container plants of my own, I would prefer something I can get for free.

I have access to pine needles. I've read it's a myth that they acidify soil. I think a container tomato would be done long before any of the needles decomposed. I can't find anything about anyone using them in grow media, though.

I also have a lot of old hay sitting around, and I might try some of it as well. All I need to add to the manure is a little bit of aeration.

drew51 · November 12, 2014

I use the needles for mulch, for my own containers I use diatomaceous earth. The Napa product or Optisorb. Both 100% DE used as oil absorbers. Cheaper than perlite. Much better than perlite as they hold water. I have a problem with drying soils in the summer, so they stay moist longer but allow great aeration also. They never breakdown either. Perlite does in about 5 years. I buy my own ingredients for potting soil. Pine bark fines ( a local nursery sells them as soil conditioner), peat moss, compost, and DE. Plus maybe lime or gypsum depending what I want to grow in it. A little organic and time release fertilizer, and small amounts of rock phosphate or other mineral supplements.
Doesn't hay have a ton of seeds? Not the best additive. I use straw for mulch. Here since Halloween has passed I collect the small bales people use for decoration, I trash hunt for it. I also got about 50 pots so far that are perfectly fine people have thrown out.
By the time I'm done adding things, I have to take a 2nd job to pay for it! So maybe use hay

No manure around here except the dog's, not really good to use! I sometimes put it in the ornamental flower bed, but not with edibles! No compost pile here in the middle of suburbia, no room, looks like crap, the wife would kill me.

Ed of Somis · November 13, 2014

C...be careful what you put into your growing media...and who you take info from online. Different products are often added to a media for specific purposes. One of those purposes is to collect/store moisture in the media....not always a good thing.

Cole_Robbie · November 13, 2014

I happen to have some unique circumstances, so I'll just have to experiment and see. We have a barn with an upstairs hay loft that has been in use for eighty years. There is a lot of very old hay residue laying around. I think a lot of the magic of the old manure I've been "mining" out of the field has to do with it being so old. I might also try sand as a cheap aerator. I think the manure is good enough to work with anything, as long as I don't get it too mucky.

drew51 · November 13, 2014

I agree, experiment, sand would work, it is what used to be used! I guess a certain type is better because it has uneven surfaces and does not compact. Builder's sand is what you want. Not beach sand. You want "sharp sand". Beach sand is rounded and compacts. Ever see glass from a river or lake? All the edges are rounded off.

Redbaron · November 13, 2014

Robbie, 40% "brown", 40% "green" and 10% manure. Pile it up, add water, mix it every 3-7 days for 3 weeks, instant usable compost. Works every time, and it makes great grow mix when screened. It's not the only way, but it works.

But here is what you do: Start the seeds themselves in small cells using NCtomatomans dense seed starting method. In those use sterile store bought mix of some kind. Whatever your favorite happens to be. Then when you transplant to individual seedling in bigger pots or bigger cells, just plant them right in the compost you made. Bottom water with inoculated water. They will take off like crazy. Then when planting outside in the ground, mix it 50/50 with good soil.

I have never had that fail yet. Always a first I suppose. If walnuts are in the compost it might not work, or herbicide in the manure. But otherwise once composted, it's all good.

Tormato · November 14, 2014

I use what's available for compost, which means quite a bit of pine needles (which are among the oak and maple leaves). I've heard the pH is about 4.5, but cannot verify that.

JamesL · November 15, 2014

Scott,
" Bottom water with inoculated water. " - can you add some color to this? Thx

Redbaron · November 15, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesL

Scott,
" Bottom water with inoculated water. " - can you add some color to this? Thx

Well this year I used MycoGrow. Last year I used Mykos. Both worked well for me.

There are several mycorrhizal inoculants on the market. I can't recommend one over the other as I haven't trialed them side by side. But both those two above I did trial compared to no inoculant. Both did better. Both regimes grew better, both withstood heat and drought better, and both yielded better to my controls. The only difference I saw between the two products was that the Xtreme product seemed to also help protect against my neighbors walnut trees a bit better. Although both gave me a crop under walnut trees, where the controls died when too close to the walnuts. Keep in mind I grow in the soil, not containers. So I am no expert on this in the container environment. I would expect them to be similar. However, you might want to confirm that with a container expert.

JamesL · November 15, 2014

Ah, mycos. Got it, thanks. I have used both Mycogrow and Biotamax.

ScottinAtlanta · November 15, 2014

I collect humus from the woods and add to compost. Just to ensure that it has a full range of fungus.

It is amazing how voracious are the bacteria that make compost. They are like little sharks in the pile. I am glad they are not tribble size, or the entire world would be eaten by them. I add a banana peel to my compost pile, and within a week it is entirely done.

I will be making around 4000 pounds of compost in the next 4 weeks - lots of mulched leaves and lots of coffee grounds.

November 11, 2014	#1
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	Pine Needles in Media? I'm going to try to make my own grow mix for next year. I have access to a field of composted cow manure that has proven to be an excellent soil amendment. It has a lot of decomposed hay in it, so it's fluffy already, but I will probably mix something in with it for aeration. Perlite is the obvious answer, and I'll do that for any bedding plants I sell. For large container plants of my own, I would prefer something I can get for free. I have access to pine needles. I've read it's a myth that they acidify soil. I think a container tomato would be done long before any of the needles decomposed. I can't find anything about anyone using them in grow media, though. I also have a lot of old hay sitting around, and I might try some of it as well. All I need to add to the manure is a little bit of aeration.

November 13, 2014	#4
Cole_Robbie Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Illinois, zone 6 Posts: 8,407	I happen to have some unique circumstances, so I'll just have to experiment and see. We have a barn with an upstairs hay loft that has been in use for eighty years. There is a lot of very old hay residue laying around. I think a lot of the magic of the old manure I've been "mining" out of the field has to do with it being so old. I might also try sand as a cheap aerator. I think the manure is good enough to work with anything, as long as I don't get it too mucky. Last edited by Cole_Robbie; November 13, 2014 at 06:26 PM.

November 13, 2014	#6
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	Robbie, 40% "brown", 40% "green" and 10% manure. Pile it up, add water, mix it every 3-7 days for 3 weeks, instant usable compost. Works every time, and it makes great grow mix when screened. It's not the only way, but it works. But here is what you do: Start the seeds themselves in small cells using NCtomatomans dense seed starting method. In those use sterile store bought mix of some kind. Whatever your favorite happens to be. Then when you transplant to individual seedling in bigger pots or bigger cells, just plant them right in the compost you made. Bottom water with inoculated water. They will take off like crazy. Then when planting outside in the ground, mix it 50/50 with good soil. I have never had that fail yet. Always a first I suppose. If walnuts are in the compost it might not work, or herbicide in the manure. But otherwise once composted, it's all good. __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture

November 12, 2014	#2
drew51 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Sterling Heights, MI Zone 6a/5b Posts: 1,302	I use the needles for mulch, for my own containers I use diatomaceous earth. The Napa product or Optisorb. Both 100% DE used as oil absorbers. Cheaper than perlite. Much better than perlite as they hold water. I have a problem with drying soils in the summer, so they stay moist longer but allow great aeration also. They never breakdown either. Perlite does in about 5 years. I buy my own ingredients for potting soil. Pine bark fines ( a local nursery sells them as soil conditioner), peat moss, compost, and DE. Plus maybe lime or gypsum depending what I want to grow in it. A little organic and time release fertilizer, and small amounts of rock phosphate or other mineral supplements. Doesn't hay have a ton of seeds? Not the best additive. I use straw for mulch. Here since Halloween has passed I collect the small bales people use for decoration, I trash hunt for it. I also got about 50 pots so far that are perfectly fine people have thrown out. By the time I'm done adding things, I have to take a 2nd job to pay for it! So maybe use hay No manure around here except the dog's, not really good to use! I sometimes put it in the ornamental flower bed, but not with edibles! No compost pile here in the middle of suburbia, no room, looks like crap, the wife would kill me.

November 13, 2014	#3
Ed of Somis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Somis, Ca Posts: 649	C...be careful what you put into your growing media...and who you take info from online. Different products are often added to a media for specific purposes. One of those purposes is to collect/store moisture in the media....not always a good thing.

November 14, 2014	#7
Tormato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: MA Posts: 4,971	I use what's available for compost, which means quite a bit of pine needles (which are among the oak and maple leaves). I've heard the pH is about 4.5, but cannot verify that.

November 15, 2014	#8
JamesL Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 1,992	Scott, " Bottom water with inoculated water. " - can you add some color to this? Thx

November 15, 2014	#11
ScottinAtlanta Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Atlanta, Georgia Posts: 2,593	I collect humus from the woods and add to compost. Just to ensure that it has a full range of fungus. It is amazing how voracious are the bacteria that make compost. They are like little sharks in the pile. I am glad they are not tribble size, or the entire world would be eaten by them. I add a banana peel to my compost pile, and within a week it is entirely done. I will be making around 4000 pounds of compost in the next 4 weeks - lots of mulched leaves and lots of coffee grounds.