Abe Lincoln golden foliage history and info sought

markferon · February 7, 2006

I would like and outline of the history of this variety quirk even if it may be extinct. A typed out copy of the original description of it and where it may have originated.
Why it seem to be such important quirk to some at that.

markferon

ADMIN EDITED - Mischka

**Mischka** · February 7, 2006

This is not GW, obviously.

As much as I may not like what has become of it, I see no need to constantly refer back to GW with negative overtones regarding past posts and/or behavior there.

Everyone has a clean slate when they join Tomatoville. The guidelines here are very easy to follow. I don't expect many problems at all.

Condensed version: please don't comment on any past problems at GW in any of Tomatovilles' forums. The post will be edited.

Thanks for your cooperation in advance.

**nctomatoman** · February 7, 2006

Abraham Lincoln is a variety released by the Buckbee Seed Company in 1923 (Buckbee later morphed into the Shumway Company, hence Abraham Lincoln was a featured variety for Shumway). The description is for a vigorous growing (= indeterminate) variety that produced large (in the one pound range) red fruit, with the added distinction of having bronze tinted foliage (whatever that means).

Many seed companies offer Abraham Lincoln. I've tried it from a variety of commercial sources - all gave semi-determinate plants producing medium sized (4-6 ounce range) red round fruit, with no hint of the bronze tinted foliage.

Here is the scan of the catalog page from the 1932 Buckbee.

The sample I got out of the USDA did give the vigorous indeterminate plant and large fruit; however, I've yet to see the bronze tinted foliage. Someone in Texas does claim to have noted this trait in plants from what I assume is the USDA source - they are however being very secretive about it.

markferon · February 8, 2006

nctomatoman besides the catalog report and the mysterious Texan are there any other reports that describe this foliage color feature. Because i am more impressed by the the size descriptions of the fruit then the mention of the bronze foliage in original article..

**nctomatoman** · February 8, 2006

No, there are no other bronze foliage observerations out there. And, beware of believing ANY catalog blurb in relation to fruit size - pretty much all seed companies really exaggerated in this area! They may be reporting best case or one point examples.

**carolyn137** · February 8, 2006

There is one other report about foliage color that I know of, and that's from Howard Essl, who is known to both Craig and myself.

One fine morning Howard swore he saw a tint to the foliage as the sun reflected off the foliage. But as he said, it never happened again and it really wasn't there.

The TX person Craig refers to made the claim but has not sent seeds to Craig, as requested, or anyone else as far as that goes, and has not given any proof at all. His explanation is that he's dealing with a seed companie(s), but this has been going on several years now, and nothing has happened.

Most folks I know theorize that the bronzy foliage was a function of soil minerals and is not a genetic trait, for no one has seen that bronze foliage, or at least mentioned it, anywhere that I know of, and that includes all the reports in the SSE Yearbooks that I've seen, going way back to some listers who lived at the time when the original Abe Lincoln was introduced.

Carolyn., who also says that Abe Lincoln is not a candidate for large tomatoes; it doesn't have the genes. I've grown several strains of it.

markferon · February 8, 2006

The next question have for you is this why has there been so much interest in this foliage color, as it relates to this variety ?

edited to remove the link to the large picture that has no relevance to this discussion. You are asking a rhetorical question - you raised the topic! Also, please edit your profile to include your location.

**carolyn137** · February 8, 2006

Interest in bronzy foliage?

I think for the reason that it's the only variety that I know of that is still in circulation that has been described to have such foliage.

And there are those who are always searching for it......just because, and no other reason.

I couldn't exactly see what you were referring to in that picture above, but it appears to be a yellow leaf mutant. But that is not the bronzy foliage that I think is being described in the original report.

Carolyn

travis · February 8, 2006

Mat,

Have you grown Abraham Lincoln?

If so, what are your observations?

PV

markferon · February 8, 2006

papa vic i have never grown it and don't plan on it. I asked the question because of the numerious post in various forums on the subject.

Scott_inTexas · February 9, 2006

Well...well...well!!! Is'nt this choice!!!! I almost set my login name to "Mysterious Texan" or "Texas Person".

I had a few folks email me in that I might want to take a look at this thread. It's amazing what you sometimes catch when you go fishing - even if it takes a couple of years.

It's also amazing how accusations can be thrown around without bothering to find out the facts of why something has or hasn't been done.

First, the Abraham Lincoln variety I have that exhibits the unique characteristics specific to this variety is NOT from the USDA seed collection though seed from this source (sent to me by Craig) is one of the better examples of the variety.

Now, you want to talk about claims????? I don't see how someone can make the claim that I have never sent seed to anyone when they don't live at my house or cannot access my records or email and therefore making it impossible to know that. With that said, the only reason for making a claim of this nature is to create a negative view of myself and my reputation. There are three gardenweb folks who should be getting seed by the end of the week or early next week but then I have sent seed out to select folks on several occasions. Oh and by the way, I DID send Craig seed which he apparently did not receive.

And what is this seed company thing that I am suppose to be dealing with? I sent an email to you, Carolyn, several months ago describing what some issues I was having to put up with regarding Abraham Lincoln seed. One of those issues had to do with the fact that someone was trying to obtain seed so that they could promote themselves and further their agenda. By all means Carolyn, go ahead and copy that email I sent you and post it here for all to see. I also pointed out the fact that I had sent seed to Craig at that time. I have sent Craig my cell phone number on several occasions. He could have called me and asked me personally whatever he liked regarding status of seed being sent, details regarding the growouts of this variety, etc. But not once did he bother to call.....only assumptions were to be made!!!

One of a few reasons I have been quite reserved with the Abraham Lincoln variety I have been growing out is that as controversial as this one has been, the situation lends itself to finding out who your friends are if enough patience is applied. And after the comments made in the previous posts, please tell me, why would I feel motivated to send seed now after reading the above comments? The really sad part about all of this is that there has to be literally hundreds of gardeners and certianly more than that who are growing Abraham Lincoln as it originally was grown...foliage and all and I am not their seed source.

I hate the fact that I have to post this mess because I take absolutely no pleasure in it. Especially due to the fact that it has to do with two extremely knowledgeable, well respected folks that both of you are. But I feel I have no choice because of negative comments being made based on assumptions for evidence. And since I see that you are both moderators, I hope that you will leave this post as it was orginally posted so that my side of the story can be viewed by others. Feel free to delete my membership here as I will not be a regular.

Sorry for the rant Mishka. Great site and here is wishing you continued success.

**carolyn137** · February 9, 2006

Scott,

Thank you for your perspective.

If Craig knew you sent him seeds and he didn't receive them and he told you that it still leaves him with no seeds, doesn't it? And that was quite a while ago.If Craig had received another shipment of seeds from you I don't think he would have said above that you were being secretive about it.

When asked why you hadn't been more forthcoming about posting pictures of your bronze leaved Abe Lincoln or sharing seeds you did say you were dealing with a seed company about it, and no, I have no way of cut and pasting that here b'c by now it has long since scrolled off GW, where you left quite a while ago b/c you felt that a few folks were not being nice to you.

Actually it's the 2nd or 3rd time you left GW for the same reason. I do hope that you'll find the atmosphere here more congenial and we're doing everything we can to keep it that way for everyone.

So you're here now and can share with those in this thread what the status of your bronze leaved one is, and whether you'll be showing pictures of a bronze leaved one vs a non bronze leaved Abe Lincoln and sharing seeds for others to try as well.

Carolyn

**nctomatoman** · February 9, 2006

Scott, I never received the seed - I sent you several emails and posted on GW, but responses from you were either spotty or nonexistant. Sorry for any misunderstanding - Scott, you do have to admit that you have created a sense of mystery around this. I am very good - disciplined, in fact - about logging seeds that I get (as you can see from my seed db). I've been very anxious to try out bronze leaf Abe for myself - in fact, I am probably the first one to go on the search for it, spurred by the comment in Dubose book about it. Not receiving a sample of seed from you has been a continuing disappointment. I went back and read the threads and can't understand why you've flown off the handle about this. Please enter into the dialogue.

markferon · February 9, 2006

Scott_inTexas I have one question for you since you have been reveal as the mystery Texan. Do you have a picture of this bronze foliage and if so would you kindly post one it online or email me a copy.

February 7, 2006	#1
markferon Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 68	Abe Lincoln golden foliage history and info sought I would like and outline of the history of this variety quirk even if it may be extinct. A typed out copy of the original description of it and where it may have originated. Why it seem to be such important quirk to some at that. markferon ADMIN EDITED - Mischka

February 7, 2006	#2
Mischka Tomatoville® Administrator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: The Bay State Posts: 3,207	This is not GW, obviously. As much as I may not like what has become of it, I see no need to constantly refer back to GW with negative overtones regarding past posts and/or behavior there. Everyone has a clean slate when they join Tomatoville. The guidelines here are very easy to follow. I don't expect many problems at all. Condensed version: please don't comment on any past problems at GW in any of Tomatovilles' forums. The post will be edited. Thanks for your cooperation in advance. __________________ Mischka One last word of farewell, Dear Master and Mistress. Whenever you visit my grave, say to yourselves with regret but also with happiness in your hearts at the remembrance of my long happy life with you: "Here lies one who loved us and whom we loved." No matter how deep my sleep I shall hear you, and not all the power of death can keep my spirit from wagging a grateful tail.

February 7, 2006	#3
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Abraham Lincoln is a variety released by the Buckbee Seed Company in 1923 (Buckbee later morphed into the Shumway Company, hence Abraham Lincoln was a featured variety for Shumway). The description is for a vigorous growing (= indeterminate) variety that produced large (in the one pound range) red fruit, with the added distinction of having bronze tinted foliage (whatever that means). Many seed companies offer Abraham Lincoln. I've tried it from a variety of commercial sources - all gave semi-determinate plants producing medium sized (4-6 ounce range) red round fruit, with no hint of the bronze tinted foliage. Here is the scan of the catalog page from the 1932 Buckbee. The sample I got out of the USDA did give the vigorous indeterminate plant and large fruit; however, I've yet to see the bronze tinted foliage. Someone in Texas does claim to have noted this trait in plants from what I assume is the USDA source - they are however being very secretive about it. __________________ Craig

February 8, 2006	#5
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	No, there are no other bronze foliage observerations out there. And, beware of believing ANY catalog blurb in relation to fruit size - pretty much all seed companies really exaggerated in this area! They may be reporting best case or one point examples. __________________ Craig

February 9, 2006	#13
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Scott, I never received the seed - I sent you several emails and posted on GW, but responses from you were either spotty or nonexistant. Sorry for any misunderstanding - Scott, you do have to admit that you have created a sense of mystery around this. I am very good - disciplined, in fact - about logging seeds that I get (as you can see from my seed db). I've been very anxious to try out bronze leaf Abe for myself - in fact, I am probably the first one to go on the search for it, spurred by the comment in Dubose book about it. Not receiving a sample of seed from you has been a continuing disappointment. I went back and read the threads and can't understand why you've flown off the handle about this. Please enter into the dialogue. __________________ Craig

February 8, 2006	#6
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	There is one other report about foliage color that I know of, and that's from Howard Essl, who is known to both Craig and myself. One fine morning Howard swore he saw a tint to the foliage as the sun reflected off the foliage. But as he said, it never happened again and it really wasn't there. The TX person Craig refers to made the claim but has not sent seeds to Craig, as requested, or anyone else as far as that goes, and has not given any proof at all. His explanation is that he's dealing with a seed companie(s), but this has been going on several years now, and nothing has happened. Most folks I know theorize that the bronzy foliage was a function of soil minerals and is not a genetic trait, for no one has seen that bronze foliage, or at least mentioned it, anywhere that I know of, and that includes all the reports in the SSE Yearbooks that I've seen, going way back to some listers who lived at the time when the original Abe Lincoln was introduced. Carolyn., who also says that Abe Lincoln is not a candidate for large tomatoes; it doesn't have the genes. I've grown several strains of it.

February 8, 2006	#9
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	Mat, Have you grown Abraham Lincoln? If so, what are your observations? PV

February 9, 2006	#11
Scott_inTexas Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 1	Well...well...well!!! Is'nt this choice!!!! I almost set my login name to "Mysterious Texan" or "Texas Person". I had a few folks email me in that I might want to take a look at this thread. It's amazing what you sometimes catch when you go fishing - even if it takes a couple of years. It's also amazing how accusations can be thrown around without bothering to find out the facts of why something has or hasn't been done. First, the Abraham Lincoln variety I have that exhibits the unique characteristics specific to this variety is NOT from the USDA seed collection though seed from this source (sent to me by Craig) is one of the better examples of the variety. Now, you want to talk about claims????? I don't see how someone can make the claim that I have never sent seed to anyone when they don't live at my house or cannot access my records or email and therefore making it impossible to know that. With that said, the only reason for making a claim of this nature is to create a negative view of myself and my reputation. There are three gardenweb folks who should be getting seed by the end of the week or early next week but then I have sent seed out to select folks on several occasions. Oh and by the way, I DID send Craig seed which he apparently did not receive. And what is this seed company thing that I am suppose to be dealing with? I sent an email to you, Carolyn, several months ago describing what some issues I was having to put up with regarding Abraham Lincoln seed. One of those issues had to do with the fact that someone was trying to obtain seed so that they could promote themselves and further their agenda. By all means Carolyn, go ahead and copy that email I sent you and post it here for all to see. I also pointed out the fact that I had sent seed to Craig at that time. I have sent Craig my cell phone number on several occasions. He could have called me and asked me personally whatever he liked regarding status of seed being sent, details regarding the growouts of this variety, etc. But not once did he bother to call.....only assumptions were to be made!!! One of a few reasons I have been quite reserved with the Abraham Lincoln variety I have been growing out is that as controversial as this one has been, the situation lends itself to finding out who your friends are if enough patience is applied. And after the comments made in the previous posts, please tell me, why would I feel motivated to send seed now after reading the above comments? The really sad part about all of this is that there has to be literally hundreds of gardeners and certianly more than that who are growing Abraham Lincoln as it originally was grown...foliage and all and I am not their seed source. I hate the fact that I have to post this mess because I take absolutely no pleasure in it. Especially due to the fact that it has to do with two extremely knowledgeable, well respected folks that both of you are. But I feel I have no choice because of negative comments being made based on assumptions for evidence. And since I see that you are both moderators, I hope that you will leave this post as it was orginally posted so that my side of the story can be viewed by others. Feel free to delete my membership here as I will not be a regular. Sorry for the rant Mishka. Great site and here is wishing you continued success.

February 9, 2006	#14
markferon Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 68	Scott_inTexas Scott_inTexas I have one question for you since you have been reveal as the mystery Texan. Do you have a picture of this bronze foliage and if so would you kindly post one it online or email me a copy.