Tomato Rotation vs Spacing

jmsieglaff · December 3, 2015

Sorry for the length, but I wanted to be thorough.

My 2 main garden beds are 11'x4' and slightly raised (actually a touch over 11'). Starting in 2016, I decided to move all my peppers to buckets, continue with some tomatoes in buckets, but moving the peppers would free up an entire garden bed for more in-ground tomatoes. The other bed would be used for other vegetables. All beds have 5' cattle panels on the north ends for growing vertical crops.

My plan was to alternate which bed had which stuff every other year for soil disease purposes. I would fill a bed with 12 tomatoes spaced 24" apart (I've used this spacing for the past many years, with 6-8 plants. I use straw mulch in much of garden and always around the tomatoes.) But then I got to thinking, foliage diseases are my issues in southern Wisconsin--not soil diseases, so is rotation for tomatoes in my garden beds really necessary? Especially because I remove straw mulch and tomato plant each fall. If I didn't rotate my tomatoes I could greatly space the tomatoes. Specifically, 6 per bed and with the spaces in between with the other veggies.

Below are two schematics of what I'm describing above (spring snapshot, some of the other veggies get followed by other things when they are done). I'm curious what some experienced tomato growers think--in my southern Wisconsin location, am I better off with a tomato bed that gets rotated annually but has plants 24" apart. Or putting the tomatoes in the same spot, thereby offering very good airflow to each plant and hopefully limiting spread of any fungal issues that may come in on the rain?

The pros/cons of going to the later IMO:

Pros:
Wide spacing means good airflow.
Wide spacing means less tomato to tomato plant contact and less disease.
Tomato shadows could be good for summer lettuce, etc.

Cons:
No rotation--same spots get tomatoes each year. (I mix soil and constantly amend, so I don't think a nutrient issue will arise.)
The other veggies don't always get straw mulch and when one crop is done and another planted, there will be bare soil by the tomatoes, so there will be soil splash back with rains.
Tomato shadows could retard growth of in-between veggies.

One 2016-only inconvenience would be if I go to the 6 per bed, I'd need to move some of my garlic in the early spring that was planted this fall.

Thanks for reading the long thread. I'm curious to your thoughts.

Justin

Below:
First image (contains cartoons of 2 beds) is my current plan.
Second image is putting the tomatoes into 6 per bed. Tomatoes are denoted by the different color sun looking things.

Worth1 · December 3, 2015

Here are my thoughts.
I like the second idea better as in putting 6 plants in each bed each year.
Why.
Crop rotation for many tomato soil born diseases takes more than a year.
More space for the tomatoes.
Many plants can grow with the tomatoes and do just fine up until maturity.
Carrots lettuce and garlic are as happy as a clam growing at the feet of tomatoes as well as many other things.
You can use many edible plants as a ground cover and you will find you dont need to mulch as much.

Worth

jmsieglaff · December 3, 2015

Thanks Worth. That's a good point about taking more than a year. Plus if I'm only rotating for soil issues that don't affect me, there is no point. I should spread them out and let them breathe!

jmsieglaff · December 5, 2015

The more I've read, the more I think in my location, more efforts on spacing (reducing foliage disease) is where my efforts are best spent.

Worth1 · December 5, 2015

I am flabbergasted no one else has commented.
Could everyone possibly agree?
Parish the thought.

Worth

jmsieglaff · December 5, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worth1

I am flabbergasted no one else has commented.
Could everyone possibly agree?
Parish the thought.

Worth

Everyone agree? Not a chance, but maybe there is an overwhelming consensus.

kath · December 5, 2015

Sorry, Justin, but I have admit that when I first saw your first post, it was way too long for me to read because I just didn't have the time.

So maybe instead of a consensus, folks are just having a busy weekend!?

Now that I've come back to it and read it completely, I can tell you that I also grow in a humid area with LOTS of leaf disease pressure every year and after 5 years of growing LOTS of tomatoes with space limitations, as well as reading lots of information here during the same time, it's my non-expert opinion that more spacing between plants is much more important in your conditions than crop rotation, mostly for the reasons you mention and especially since you're compensating for nutrient loss. So, yes, I agree with Worth!

Even when I've done everything possible to protect my tomato plants from the beginning from splash back, including mulching and removing lower leaves, they still get the fungal leaf infections when the conditions are right. I've come to believe that the air borne spores are going to get them even if spores from splash back do not. Having plants spaced farther apart so that they get more sun and air to dry more quickly has made a difference that I've been able to observe.

You can search to find other older threads that discuss this topic in detail and you'll find many people who've grown amazing tomato plants in the same spot for decades.

I think the only con is that moving fall planted garlic in the spring could be a disaster.

I've never tried it, so maybe someone else could help with that. Hopefully you have the space to put in another bed someday and spread things out even more, so that shade isn't an issue- and so that you can grow even more tomatoes, of course!

kath

Redbaron · December 5, 2015

For years, maybe even decades, I crowded my tomatoes. I simply always wanted to try and get as many plants in as possible. No more. I like spreading them out and then growing my companion plants between them now. MUCH healthier plants, MUCH easier to harvest. MUCH better yields. I even think the tomatoes taste better too, but that is subjective.

As far as bare earth goes, keep that to a minimum always. Even if it means just a light sprinkling of grass clippings until direct seeded crops push through.

When it comes to rotation, yes I rotate. But I rotate in the same beds. Best way to explain it is this. instead of
T II T II T II, I will follow a bed the next year with
II T II T II T. Where T is tomato rows with other veggies and herbs companion planted between plants and II is the between rows growing grasses as perennial covers.
I also keep the perennial covers between my rows mowed, so the II is equivalent to fallow. This way I accomplish fallow, rotation, and multi species polyculture crop yields every year on the same field. Much improved soil health with minimal amendments needed this way.

Now if you have plenty of amendments, I doubt all this would be necessary. But I have way more plants than amendments to do it that way. I had to figure out a way to reduce the requirement for amendments and mulch, but still have all the benefits amendments and mulch make. That's what I came up with. Worked every year except this last year, but I had fields 3 feet under water this last spring, and even my dryer fields were saturated for well over a month or two and I doubt anything would have worked.

jmsieglaff · December 5, 2015

I really appreciate the detailed feedback and accounts of your gardens. I'm going ahead with this plan in 2016 and I think when Septoria does come raining down (literately), it will be easier to control and less prone from going from one plant to the next.

I know exactly what you mean about squeezing in as many as you can. This plan lets me grow the same number but hopefully with less foliage issues.

As far as moving the garlic that's only a 1 year thing and I only need to move some of it. I've done it once before in a year when I expanded my garden. I didn't weigh the moved heads vs the nonmoved but didn't notice any glaring differences. I think the key is to do it as early as the ground can be worked and to move garlic and soil 'chunks', trying to disturb the roots as little as possible and then water in thoroughly.

guruofgardens · December 6, 2015

I'm probably in the minority, but my crops are rotated on a 3 year plan in the same garden , just moved about 20' . My tomato rows are on 4' centers because they get quite large. Between each tomato I've tried 36" apart but have decided 42-45" fits well in my space.

As for digging up the garlic, I'd advise against it, though planting garlic in March seemed to produce good sized heads.

December 5, 2015	#7
kath Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: zone 6b, PA Posts: 5,664	Sorry, Justin, but I have admit that when I first saw your first post, it was way too long for me to read because I just didn't have the time. So maybe instead of a consensus, folks are just having a busy weekend!? Now that I've come back to it and read it completely, I can tell you that I also grow in a humid area with LOTS of leaf disease pressure every year and after 5 years of growing LOTS of tomatoes with space limitations, as well as reading lots of information here during the same time, it's my non-expert opinion that more spacing between plants is much more important in your conditions than crop rotation, mostly for the reasons you mention and especially since you're compensating for nutrient loss. So, yes, I agree with Worth! Even when I've done everything possible to protect my tomato plants from the beginning from splash back, including mulching and removing lower leaves, they still get the fungal leaf infections when the conditions are right. I've come to believe that the air borne spores are going to get them even if spores from splash back do not. Having plants spaced farther apart so that they get more sun and air to dry more quickly has made a difference that I've been able to observe. You can search to find other older threads that discuss this topic in detail and you'll find many people who've grown amazing tomato plants in the same spot for decades. I think the only con is that moving fall planted garlic in the spring could be a disaster.I've never tried it, so maybe someone else could help with that. Hopefully you have the space to put in another bed someday and spread things out even more, so that shade isn't an issue- and so that you can grow even more tomatoes, of course! kath Last edited by kath; December 5, 2015 at 03:32 PM.

December 5, 2015	#8
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	For years, maybe even decades, I crowded my tomatoes. I simply always wanted to try and get as many plants in as possible. No more. I like spreading them out and then growing my companion plants between them now. MUCH healthier plants, MUCH easier to harvest. MUCH better yields. I even think the tomatoes taste better too, but that is subjective. As far as bare earth goes, keep that to a minimum always. Even if it means just a light sprinkling of grass clippings until direct seeded crops push through. When it comes to rotation, yes I rotate. But I rotate in the same beds. Best way to explain it is this. instead of T II T II T II, I will follow a bed the next year with II T II T II T. Where T is tomato rows with other veggies and herbs companion planted between plants and II is the between rows growing grasses as perennial covers. I also keep the perennial covers between my rows mowed, so the II is equivalent to fallow. This way I accomplish fallow, rotation, and multi species polyculture crop yields every year on the same field. Much improved soil health with minimal amendments needed this way. Now if you have plenty of amendments, I doubt all this would be necessary. But I have way more plants than amendments to do it that way. I had to figure out a way to reduce the requirement for amendments and mulch, but still have all the benefits amendments and mulch make. That's what I came up with. Worked every year except this last year, but I had fields 3 feet under water this last spring, and even my dryer fields were saturated for well over a month or two and I doubt anything would have worked. __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture Last edited by Redbaron; December 5, 2015 at 05:10 PM.

December 3, 2015	#2
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Here are my thoughts. I like the second idea better as in putting 6 plants in each bed each year. Why. Crop rotation for many tomato soil born diseases takes more than a year. More space for the tomatoes. Many plants can grow with the tomatoes and do just fine up until maturity. Carrots lettuce and garlic are as happy as a clam growing at the feet of tomatoes as well as many other things. You can use many edible plants as a ground cover and you will find you dont need to mulch as much. Worth

December 3, 2015	#3
jmsieglaff Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Southern WI Posts: 2,742	Thanks Worth. That's a good point about taking more than a year. Plus if I'm only rotating for soil issues that don't affect me, there is no point. I should spread them out and let them breathe!

December 6, 2015	#10
guruofgardens Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2008 Location: zone 5 Colorado Posts: 942	I'm probably in the minority, but my crops are rotated on a 3 year plan in the same garden , just moved about 20' . My tomato rows are on 4' centers because they get quite large. Between each tomato I've tried 36" apart but have decided 42-45" fits well in my space. As for digging up the garlic, I'd advise against it, though planting garlic in March seemed to produce good sized heads.