Japanese Black Trifele X Orange Banana

[Frog]

My 7 year old daughter has carried out this cross, teaching her to emasculate was tricky, but she's nailed it now.

I'm unclear what genes are responsible for the orange of orange banana, and somewhat confused by the nature of black/brown fruit.

I wanted her to start on a simpler cross, but she was determined that this was the one she wanted to make.

Question is, what are we likely to see in the F1?

[dice]

Medium sized round red.

(Just kidding, but looking back at the Dwarf Project
beginnings, that was the most common F1 fruit type
and color, with an occasional orange, yellow, or pink.
Dark colors in the progeny did not show up before the
F2 generations, even if there was a dark-fruited parent
of an F1, like Carbon or Cherokee Chocolate. There were
a few oblate F1s, but far more round F1s. That could have
had to do with more round dwarf parents used in the original
crosses than any other dwarf fruit shape. Your plum x banana
could give a more elongated F1 fruit shape.)

[TZ-OH6]

From what I am seeing with my Lime Green Salad crosses with black, yellow-white, and green sausage type fruits I wouldn't be surprised to see a plum shape (sausage x round/pear) and a ripening color that passes from green to orange to red, possibly with green shoulders. Your F2 generation will be fun to grow out to watch the segregation.

[Frog]

Looking forward to the F2s.

Orange Banana is a deep orange, is this likely to be caused by the B and/or Mo genes, if these are dominant and the r+ gene is also dominant what happens where a plant carries r+ and B and/or Mo, do you get a red tomato?

[TZ-OH6]

I really don't know. Maybe Tom Wagner is around to give you an educated answer. I'm mostly working off of a small amount of direct observation. But it is my understanding that B is incompletely dominant to r+ so your F1 may be orange-red.

[Frog]

Hmm... so there is potential here for a whole lot of segregation for colour at the F2. Especially if the brown/black of JBT is the result of r+ and gf interaction.

So if OB was, say rrBBGfGf and JBT RRbbgfgf, what colour would the segregant rrbbGfGf be? What about rrBBgfgf? Or rrbbgfgf?


Not that I know which genes are behind JBT's brown/blackness or indeed OB's orangeness... just thinking aloud really.

[Frog]

Well tomatoes are done here for the year, not a bad season in all, I somehow escaped the blight that has destroyed UK crops, despite using no chemicals at all, I just sprayed with milk.

We harvested all of our crossed tomatoes and saved the seeds. Amazingly both of my daughter's attempts at emasculation took.

I have now germinated seeds from each of the tomatoes and grown them alongside uncrossed seeds from the parents as a control measure. All but one of my crosses are showing regular leaves, so we have plenty of F1 seed to work with.

I am going to try to grow a few F1 toms indoors so that I can skip to the F2 next season.

Excited already, probably more so than my daughter.

[Frog]

My attempts to squeeze some F2 seed out of a few indoor plants failed, our winter was just too awful and I'm tight when it comes to heating so the plants failed to thrive in the coldest winter for 31 years.

I have now sown F1 seed from the cross as well as seed from both parents, all the F1s are showing RL, as expected, however I have had one surprise; I had seed secured from two separate crosses made using the same male but to two different flowers on two different females. I carefully kept the seed from each fruit separately and I have sown from each batch. One batch came up uniformly after 4 days, the second batch did nothing for 8 days. The control JBT seeds came up after 4 days as did the OB seeds. So what's going on here? I fear the two females may not have been identical to one another.

[TZ-OH6]

I don't know about the germination. Could be a processing fermentation thing. I've had different fruits from the same plant give good and bad germination percentages when tested side by side. ..Don't know why.


Are the failed winter F1's still around? older plants, even if stunted will flower faster than new seedlings. It is possible that if you get them planted outside as soon as weather permits you could get some early fruits (seed from green fruits) and plant f2s in time for end of season fruits from them.

[Frog]

No the F1s died, the room they were in was just too cold over winter.

Never mind, we'll just take our time.

[travis]

I imagine your daughter's F1 will be an elongated, red plum.

[Frog]

Originally Posted by travis

I imagine your daughter's F1 will be an elongated, red plum.

Yeah, that's my impression, I've just potted on the F1s which are now being hardened off, I'll let you all know how they go.

[Frog]

I've been reading this paper http://www.genetics.org/cgi/reprint/38/2/117.pdf on the genetics of orange tomatoes. I hadn't realised that most orange tomatoes are RRtt__ , or RR__BB seemingly carrying the R allele is typical. So it would seem that both parents in my cross are probably homozygous for the dominant form at the r-locus.

So I don't think we'll see any segregation at the F2 for green or white tomatoes. Both tomatoes are clear skinned so red and yellow tomatoes are not going to come up either.

Orange gene t is recessive but B is dominant so if OB's orange is caused by B then isn't the F1 going to be orange (RRBb) rather than pink?

[TZ-OH6]

I think that last year, about the time the OB x JPT thread started, that I asked Keith Mueller (Mulio over at GW) something about this (possibly after reading the paper you linked) and he said that almost all of the commercially available orange tomatoes were really "gold" and thus one of the yellow flesh (r) alleles. I did a search over there and couldn't find the thread, so it may be some place else. Anyway, it stuck in my mind that I could pretty much forget about Tangerine and Beta genes unless the tomato was one of the newer "Healthy" tomatoes.

[Frog]

Source: http://tgrc.ucdavis.edu/Images/gf,r,...uit%20comp.jpg

The second from the left supports the 'gold' orange tomato. I hadn't realised r, gf would be an orangey colour too.

There goes my theory.