The Angle On Angles.

Worth1 · July 5, 2016

I thought this might be a good thread to start on its own and dedicate it to measuring and angles.
Please feel free to make suggestions and comments as we go along.
Just about everything I do ends up garden related ate one time or another.
So I feel it appropriate to have this thread.

Many of you guys like to build your own stuff like raised beds and so on.
To many of you what I do may seem like over kill.
But I have a philosophy that I have carried with me all of my life.
If you can cut something not right it is just as easy to cut it right.
Given that you have at least a fare quality tool to do it with.
Here is an example of poor workman ship.
On a job I was on two DGAS (Dont give a $%^#)guys where cutting angle iron with a Porta Band saw.
They were brackets to support pipe.
The cuts were wild crooked in aver way they looked like crap.

I told them so and they didn't care.
My boss who was also a Marine came up to them and mentioned the sloppy work they were doing.
They said it didn't matter because all they did was support pipe.
My boss came unglued and told them they were the type of people that needed to flip hamburgers and they had no pride in them selves.
The rant went on for some time.

On another job years later we were putting up vertical conduit on a wall along side the electricians conduit.
They came to me and said my stuff was crooked and wasn't running with theirs.
No I said your stuff is out of plumb my isn't.
They said you need to make it run with ours.
No I dont, I dont work for you and walked off.
This same hap hazard stuff was all over the place with mine running true and theirs not.
There were seems on the metal walls I was following them, not like it was hard or anything.
They continued to be ticked off.
I mean this stuff was really bad even if our conduit wasn't there, you could see it was out of whack.

Well the inspectors came along and tore our stuff apart inspecting everything.
These guys had to rip every bit of their stuff down and do it right.

Then the jerks blamed it on me saying I made their stuff look bad.
I too had a guy on the crew that I had to run off because of poor workmanship.
I gave him lots of chances, advice, take you time and everything and he just pouted and called me a perfectionist.
Well enough of that.

Here is the dirty rotten truth about angles.
If you make a mistake on two that go together you have now doubled the mistake.
Depending on what you are doing will dictate on how far out you can be.
My neighbor built a shed and had this problem, by the time he got to the roof part he was in trouble.
He said I dont know what happened.

In the following posts I will show some of the tips and tricks I use to try and get this as close as I can.
Along the way I will show some of the tools I use to do it and how I use them.
Sometimes it turns into a total flop.
The phrase good enough for woodwork drives me nuts.

Worth

Nematode · July 5, 2016

Slacker : "Hey Nematode ease up you are making me(us) look bad."

Nematode:" You don't need help from me to look bad."

Worth1 · July 5, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nematode

Slacker : "Hey Nematode ease up you are making me(us) look bad."

Nematode:" You don't need help from me to look bad."

You cannot believe how many times I have heard that.

Here is a Ruben Goldberg contraption if I ever saw one.
I think the picture is self explanatory but I am measuring the distance from the collar I made and the ears on the router.
All I have to do is account for the thickness of the square blade.
Worth
IMG_20160705_6576.jpg

dmforcier · July 5, 2016

What??? I see two (three?) machinists squares, a pipe flaring jig, a vernier caliper butt, hex wrench, some clamps, and what the heck is that in the back? Look like one of those big immersion blenders turned upside down.

Worth1 · July 5, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmforcier

What??? I see two (three?) machinists squares, a pipe flaring jig, a vernier caliper butt, hex wrench, some clamps, and what the heck is that in the back? Look like one of those big immersion blenders turned upside down.

To see what all this is about it is in the random pictures section.

When you want to measure how far out you are on a measurement or angle put two together and it will give you a better idea of how far out you are.

I used to do this all the time with calipers and running molding or cutting angles.

Worth

'

Worth1 · July 5, 2016

I hope I got the right pictures my brain is fried.
Here are two pictures of how I got my angles.
I also stupidly moved the protracted but it was no big deal.
I just went to the so called field method and bent a wire to vet tje same thing.
This wire was then taken to the bending area to make tbe proper angle on the steel I was bending.
At my disposal I have three ways to get the angels they all read the same.

Worth
IMG_20160705_3313.jpg

IMG_20160705_38130.jpg

Worth1 · July 5, 2016

I moved the sliding T bevel square to to the protractor to get a reading.
You can call it 80 degrees and 50 minutes or 9 degrees and 10 minutes or what ever your little hearts desire.

What you will then do is put the protractor on 9 degrees and 10 minutes to bend your piece.

Worth

Worth1 · July 5, 2016

In the above post I may have confused people.
It is this piece I was wanting to bend so I had to go to 9 degrees and 10 minutes to set it up.
Worth

Worth1 · July 10, 2016

I know this is a pretty darn boring subject but I will try my best to put it to practical applications.
We will all learn together so to speak as this thread moves along.
In it I will also add leverage to make it even more exciting than it already is.

I have a lot of research to do before I can post much more here.
Why, because folks with joint pain may learn how to deal with things a little better.
To me it isn't just knowing why it is to understand why.

Worth

Worth1 · July 13, 2016

The sine bar and gauge blocks are the most accurate way to get an angle or test one that is already made.
Your imagination is the only limit to what you can do with one.
I have looked till I am blue in the face for my handbooks with all of the information already in tables and cant find it.
Here is a sine bar.
The trick to this thing is the distance between the centers of the two bars in the bottom.
To set the bar up you multiply the sine by the distance between the centers.
So if it is a 5 inch sine bar and you wanted to know how high to set it for 45 degrees you would multiply 5 X 0.70711=5.5355 which would be the height of the gauge blocks to set under one end.
I have calculators with these settings some place to but cant find them.
They are also on line.

How can this help you at home?
Lets say you wanted to cut a tree down and wanted to make sure you didn't drop in on the house.
You can use these same functions or stuff like it for finding out how tall the tree is.

This is how I found out the neighbor was about to drop a tree on his house.
He said it (((looks)))) like it wont hit it.
I told him the math doesn't lie the thing is going to take your back porch and truck out.

You can do the same thing with a compass to tell how far it is across a river or canyon.
You can use the thing to set up all sorts of stuff and make very accurate angle blocks for your saw or drill press.
Worth

Worth1 · July 13, 2016

I just want to add that when I worked in a cabinet shop I would tinker with equipment until it was dead on right.
When we moved we had to take all of the stuff and set it up some place else.
They laid every one off but me and two other guys for a week.
We set everything up including new stuff.
If something will consistently cut something wrong at the same wrong angle it will cut it right.

Worth

Hellmanns · July 13, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worth1

I just want to add that when I worked in a cabinet shop I would tinker with equipment until it was dead on right.
When we moved we had to take all of the stuff and set it up some place else.
They laid every one off but me and two other guys for a week.
We set everything up including new stuff.
If something will consistently cut something wrong at the same wrong angle it will cut it right.

Worth

I do the same thing, Worth. No saw comes from the factory dead on. I won't use a saw for work until I have it perfect.

Worth1 · July 13, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellmanns

I do the same thing, Worth. No saw comes from the factory dead on. I won't use a saw for work until I have it perfect.

Seen your work I know you do.

I bet you hate hearing the term, "Good enough for woodwork" too.

Worth

AlittleSalt · July 14, 2016

I agree completely. Saws and tools should be calibrated to work as precise as possible.

I'm more of a person that uses an axe for cutting down trees, but the angle is the same to keep it from falling in the wrong places. A come-along with a long chain helping to persuade it doesn't hurt either.

Learning how to use any tool correctly - and improve on it - is what its all about.

Worth1 · July 14, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

I agree completely. Saws and tools should be calibrated to work as precise as possible.

I'm more of a person that uses an axe for cutting down trees, but the angle is the same to keep it from falling in the wrong places. A come-along with a long chain helping to persuade it doesn't hurt either.

Learning how to use any tool correctly - and improve on it - is what its all about.

I see most people that use a hack saw dont use it correctly.
I put one hand in front and one in back on the handle for a good part of the time.

As for the sine bar it is relatively cheap the gauge blocks are way expensive.
A better choice is angle gauge blocks for most people.
There was a guy complaining that the gauge block set didn't give enough angles.
Little did he know or was taught they have a plus and minus on each end.'
By tuning the blocks one way or another and stacking them you can get any angle.
Since my miter gauge is extremely accurate I cut wood gauge blocks to set other stuff up.

I have considered the digital read out protractor but question the accuracy of them.

Worth

July 5, 2016	#1
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	The Angle On Angles. I thought this might be a good thread to start on its own and dedicate it to measuring and angles. Please feel free to make suggestions and comments as we go along. Just about everything I do ends up garden related ate one time or another. So I feel it appropriate to have this thread. Many of you guys like to build your own stuff like raised beds and so on. To many of you what I do may seem like over kill. But I have a philosophy that I have carried with me all of my life. If you can cut something not right it is just as easy to cut it right. Given that you have at least a fare quality tool to do it with. Here is an example of poor workman ship. On a job I was on two DGAS (Dont give a $%^#)guys where cutting angle iron with a Porta Band saw. They were brackets to support pipe. The cuts were wild crooked in aver way they looked like crap. I told them so and they didn't care. My boss who was also a Marine came up to them and mentioned the sloppy work they were doing. They said it didn't matter because all they did was support pipe. My boss came unglued and told them they were the type of people that needed to flip hamburgers and they had no pride in them selves. The rant went on for some time. On another job years later we were putting up vertical conduit on a wall along side the electricians conduit. They came to me and said my stuff was crooked and wasn't running with theirs. No I said your stuff is out of plumb my isn't. They said you need to make it run with ours. No I dont, I dont work for you and walked off. This same hap hazard stuff was all over the place with mine running true and theirs not. There were seems on the metal walls I was following them, not like it was hard or anything. They continued to be ticked off. I mean this stuff was really bad even if our conduit wasn't there, you could see it was out of whack. Well the inspectors came along and tore our stuff apart inspecting everything. These guys had to rip every bit of their stuff down and do it right. Then the jerks blamed it on me saying I made their stuff look bad. I too had a guy on the crew that I had to run off because of poor workmanship. I gave him lots of chances, advice, take you time and everything and he just pouted and called me a perfectionist. Well enough of that. Here is the dirty rotten truth about angles. If you make a mistake on two that go together you have now doubled the mistake. Depending on what you are doing will dictate on how far out you can be. My neighbor built a shed and had this problem, by the time he got to the roof part he was in trouble. He said I dont know what happened. In the following posts I will show some of the tips and tricks I use to try and get this as close as I can. Along the way I will show some of the tools I use to do it and how I use them. Sometimes it turns into a total flop. The phrase good enough for woodwork drives me nuts. Worth

July 5, 2016	#4
dmforcier Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 3,825	What??? I see two (three?) machinists squares, a pipe flaring jig, a vernier caliper butt, hex wrench, some clamps, and what the heck is that in the back? Look like one of those big immersion blenders turned upside down. __________________ Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out? - Will Rogers

July 5, 2016	#7
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	I moved the sliding T bevel square to to the protractor to get a reading. You can call it 80 degrees and 50 minutes or 9 degrees and 10 minutes or what ever your little hearts desire. What you will then do is put the protractor on 9 degrees and 10 minutes to bend your piece. Worth Last edited by Worth1; July 5, 2016 at 11:24 PM.

July 5, 2016	#2
Nematode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: massachusetts Posts: 1,710	Slacker : "Hey Nematode ease up you are making me(us) look bad." Nematode:" You don't need help from me to look bad."

July 10, 2016	#9
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	I know this is a pretty darn boring subject but I will try my best to put it to practical applications. We will all learn together so to speak as this thread moves along. In it I will also add leverage to make it even more exciting than it already is. I have a lot of research to do before I can post much more here. Why, because folks with joint pain may learn how to deal with things a little better. To me it isn't just knowing why it is to understand why. Worth

July 13, 2016	#10
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	The sine bar and gauge blocks are the most accurate way to get an angle or test one that is already made. Your imagination is the only limit to what you can do with one. I have looked till I am blue in the face for my handbooks with all of the information already in tables and cant find it. Here is a sine bar. The trick to this thing is the distance between the centers of the two bars in the bottom. To set the bar up you multiply the sine by the distance between the centers. So if it is a 5 inch sine bar and you wanted to know how high to set it for 45 degrees you would multiply 5 X 0.70711=5.5355 which would be the height of the gauge blocks to set under one end. I have calculators with these settings some place to but cant find them. They are also on line. How can this help you at home? Lets say you wanted to cut a tree down and wanted to make sure you didn't drop in on the house. You can use these same functions or stuff like it for finding out how tall the tree is. This is how I found out the neighbor was about to drop a tree on his house. He said it (((looks)))) like it wont hit it. I told him the math doesn't lie the thing is going to take your back porch and truck out. You can do the same thing with a compass to tell how far it is across a river or canyon. You can use the thing to set up all sorts of stuff and make very accurate angle blocks for your saw or drill press. Worth

July 14, 2016	#14
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	I agree completely. Saws and tools should be calibrated to work as precise as possible. I'm more of a person that uses an axe for cutting down trees, but the angle is the same to keep it from falling in the wrong places. A come-along with a long chain helping to persuade it doesn't hurt either. Learning how to use any tool correctly - and improve on it - is what its all about.