Diener - confusing background information

[Tania]

I have been reading Amy Goldman's new tomato book and found Diener having a background info different from what I thought it was:

According to Amy Goldman, this tomato was developed by Richard Diener of Kentfield, California from a cross of San Jose Canner and Trophy, and released in 1917.

Carolyn Male, who introduced this variety in the SSE 1996 Yearbook, describes it as " 75 days - NSL 27497, this was bred from Santa Clara Canner (see desc.) and has the same oblate, thick walled tomatoes but it is a deeper crimson, I do like the taste... excellent. O.S. NY MA C 96".

Amy Goldman describes the taste of this tomato as "poor, low acid and low sugar", which does not agree with Carolyn Male's description. Also, Amy states that this tomato was specifically bred for weight, and it should weigh up to 2 lbs. 10 ounces, while Carolyn's description and all the SSE members who got the seed from Carolyn describe it in the 8-12 oz range.

It certainly looks like the folks are talking about two different tomatoes!

Now, some inquiring minds want to know the truth!

Tania

[carolyn137]

Tania, when I researched Diener back in 1995, as received from the USDA, what you posted above about it is what I found and listed the same when I entered into it in the SSE YEarbook. And it was represented as selected from Santa Clara Canner by Diener. And also that it, Santa Clara Canner, probably originated in Italy. When I grew the two side by side Diener was a much darker red than SCC, that being the only difference between the two, and I think I mentioned that as well. Both have very thick walls which were favorable for canning. I don't necessarily see where the bred for weight comment comes into play for a canning variety.

And as far as I can remember San Jose Canner was a selection/strain of Santa Clara Canner b'c I remember reading that several selections of SCC were made at that time and they had slightly different names that were given based on geographically where they were grown viz San Jose vs Santa Clara, both canning centers at that time. SSE itself continues to list a Santa Clara Early as I suppose one of the selections/strains.

My source for both Santa Clara Canner and Diener was the USDA.

That's all I can say.

You'll find quite a few histories/backgounds in Amy's book that are not in accord with what what my understanding is, and there's really nothing more I can say about that.

You say you want truth. With this variety and many more bred or selected for in the past as commercial varieties, or even non-commercial varieties, I think sometimes that can be hard to determine for a variety of reasons.

I really don't like getting into is Carolyn right or Amy or her researchers right kind of discussion for I know, as I referred to above, that there are differences in some histories/backgrounds given in her book versus in my book or what I know about a variety that isn't even in my book.

So believe and accept what you wish.

[ContainerTed]

I think we should stay focused on the real important stuff, here.

The real important question here is, "DOES THE TOMATO TASTE GOOD AND IF SO, HOW CAN WE GET SOME SEED???


This is like the classic example of writing history long after it happened. Sometimes the facts get clouded by time and events. For me, Dr. Carolyn is an established tomato-ologist whose knowledge and expertise is world renowned. Amy is kinda like the "new kid on the block" and needs the processes of time to be proven one way or another.

I feel like Dr. Carolyn authored her book out of love. Her obvious affection jumps off the pages. Amy's reason is not so clear to me, but at first look, certainly has some monetary shadows cast upon it.

So, six of one - half a dozen of the other. It's like comparing two different encyclopedias. I say we should take them both with a grain of salt and enjoy the gorgeous photography. Small details are only as important as we insist on making them. I won't be planting either version of the tomato in my garden next year, so I have lots of time to mull on it. And I'll probably mull on it a lot.

[Tania]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

I think we should stay focused on the real important stuff, here.

The real important question here is, "DOES THE TOMATO TASTE GOOD AND IF SO, HOW CAN WE GET SOME SEED???

The good news is that SSE members obtained the seed from Carolyn and hence the taste should be very good!

Diener is available at Tomatofest (http://store.tomatofest.com/ProductD...ctCode=TF-0140), and SSE members can obtain the seed from the SSE Yearbook. I certainly will .

Originally Posted by carolyn137

You say you want truth. With this variety and many more bred or selected for in the past as commercial varieties, or even non-commercial varieties, I think sometimes that can be hard to determine for a variety of reasons.

Carolyn, I was partially joking when I said that
I fully agree with you here (been there a few times) - sometimes we do end up with two, or more, 'different' stories about the same tomato. I personally think it is important to bring in both stories, especially when they are coming from such reputable sources, so folks could see there may be some controversy around a variety. That would be better than taking one story as 'true' and painting the other 'false' automatically.

Back to the Diener's story. Reading Amy's book further, it may seem (and this is my personal observation, you judge for yourself when you read the following paragraphs) that Amy may not trust her info source herself, as she is bringing some interesting observations about the person who supposedly developed this variety. So I personally stick with Carolyn's story, but I will mention both at TOMATObase for everyone's reference.

Cheers,
Tania

[Tania]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

You'll find quite a few histories/backgounds in Amy's book that are not in accord with what what my understanding is, and there's really nothing more I can say about that.

Carolyn, I wish you could share your stories, especially if they are different. PLEASE (if you can)! Otherwise, we will all think that the official (=published) story is correct, and it may not be. As I said in the other post, I wish you could write another tomato book... But I understand it is not that simple for various reasons. And, as I mentioned above, it is important to be aware of a controversy, and maybe some lucky researcher in the future would be able to dig up facts that may back up one of the other (or both!) stories.

I do take the various 'encyclopedic' facts with a grain of salt. In tomato world, the example would be fruit weights that some growers report (i.e. I never saw Manitoba fruit getting up to 10 oz, or Stupice being 4 oz, although I really really tried ) Obviously, the PNW conditions do not assist in production of such large fruit on these varieties. Or, maybe they don't grow that big...

Carolyn, please also accept my deepest apologies if my first post sounded like I wanted to challenge you (or Amy) (I DID NOT! )

Tania

[robin303]

I'll listen to Carolyn anyday. To me she is a tomato guru.

[barkeater]

I grew Diener in my garden and it had lousy taste fresh. Canning it was fine, the few I got. It probably does best grown on the left coast. ;-)

[bitterwort]

I grew it last year and this from seeds I got from Carolyn. Last year it was wonderful and sweet and the heaviest-bearing tomato I grew (of about 20 varieties). We ate most of them fresh, and the taste was excellent. This year, the plant has struggled with diseases and sub-par weather (hot and humid when they should have been setting fruit), so production has been very low. If you grew it only once, Bark, you might try it again (if you're sure you had a good seed source).