DICE, What's Your Take on This?

[amideutch]

Came across a product with the following ingredients. What's interesting is two of it's ingredients are used in Actinovate and Serenade.

Streptomyces lydicus
Bacillus subtilis
Bacillus licheniformis
Bacillus megaterium
Bacillus pumulis
Paenibacillus polymyxa
Streptomyces griseus
Psuedomonas fluorescence
Trichoderma harzianum

Dice, what do you think we got here? A lot of ingredients. As I said before The first ingredient listed is the prime mover in Actinovate and the second one is the one that makes Ray's Serenade do it's thing. Maybe you can help on the rest and give us your thoughts. As Ray says, Inquiring minds need to know. Ami

[dice]

I wonder if whatever streptomyces lydicus strain is in there
will perform the same as the specific strain in Actinovate,
streptomyces lydicus strain WYEC 108 (here I have been spelling
this wrong as "lycidus", oh well; the Actinovate shorthand is
useful), or if in fact it is that exact bacterium.

Two that I recognize immediately are bacillus subtilis and
trichoderma harzianum. Bacillus subtilis also has a lot of
different strains (bacteria reproduce and evolve quickly into
slightly different organisms than what you started with), and
normally you need a specific strain for a specific plant
disease or insect pest that you are trying to control. If you
Google

"bacillus subtilis" biocontrol

you will see what I mean. Almost every research document
referenced by Google is testing a different, numbered strain
of BT against a specific disease or pest.

[Edit: BT is not bacillus subtilis. It is bacillus thuringiensis, used
in various pest control applications. So that should be, "... is
testing a different, numbered strain of bacillus subtilis against
a specific disease or pest." Same observation probably applies
to research with BT, too, though.]

Wikipedia on trichoderma harzianum (a fungus rather than a
bacteria): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trichoderma_harzianum
There is also clearly a lot of genetic differentiation in
trichoderma harzianum varieties (Google results again).

I expect that this will be true of the rest of the microorganisms
in the product that you listed. So without the specific strain of
each organism included, we don't really know much about the
product other than it includes organisms for which at least some
genetic variants are effective disease controls in soil and/or on
foliage.

To wit: another "try it and see if it helped" product.

I still have a lot of Myco-grow Soluble left from last year
(ordered two packets to amortize shipping a little more),
so everything that I transplant is getting that this year. It has
the same problem: species is listed but not which strain exactly.
That need for a specific gene mix in a genetically mutation
prone organism is probably not as much of a problem for the
mycorhizzae in Soluble, which only need to inhabit roots, break
down nutrients, and transport them into close contact with the
roots to be effective in their role of enhancing the effectiveness
of root systems, as it is for the bacteria in Soluble.

That was another question I had about the bacteria in
Actinovate: since it weakens the cell walls in some pathogenic
soil fungi, will it do that to mycorhizzae, too? (Is it a waste
to use both Actinovate and mycorhizzae together?)

[amideutch]

Good stuff dice. Concerning your question concerning the compatibility of Mycorrhiza and Actinovate, I asked Thomas G. at T&J enterprises and he said if anything they should compliment each other. I have been using them together the last two years and have been very satisfied with the results and will continue to use them in tandem.
The ingredients I gave you come from the product "SubCulture" made by General Hydroponics which is suitable for soil and hydroponic cultivation. They call it a Speciality Fertilizer & Root Inoculant. It's NPK is (0.1-0.04-0.02)! Price is aound $13.00 an ounce compared to Actinovate which is $10.00 to $12.00 per ounce. I ordered a 1 oz pack and will give it a try this season. Havn't decided whether I'm going to use it as a foliar or a drench. What do you think dice? Ami

[amideutch]

Here's a link I came across on a test conducted by UC Davis on "SubCulture" used in a Hydroponic scenario growing cucumbers. Ami

http://lieth.ucdavis.edu/RepLim/RepLim221%20GH_2006_SubCulture_Report.pdf

[dice]

Interesting. The report did not mention any disease incidence
in any of the control solutions or the test solutions, so disease
control was apparently a non-issue in the hydroponic test. What
they ended up testing was SubCulture's ability to enhance
nutrient uptake (and its ability to clog hydroponic filters, LOL).

The paper suggested a follow-up test to see how far they could
reduce the dosage of SubCulture added to the hydroponic
nutrient solution and still get virtually the same result (since
the half strength solution seemed to work so well). I can think
of another one: comparing SubCulture with compost tea added
to the hydroponic nutrient bath (since compost, manure, and
earthworm casting teas may already contain many or all of the
organisms in SubCulture and similar products). Manure and
earthworm casting teas probably contain enough additional
N-P-K to make any results tested with growth comparisons
meaningless, and the compost tea would have to be tested
for that, too, before conducting a real research study.

(The tiny bit of N-P-K in SubCulture is probably in the sugar
substrate.)

It was interesting to me that the organisms in SubCulture
seemed to thrive even in a hydroponic system where the
N-P-K and micros are probably all synthetic chemicals.

I came across another soil inoculant product browsing
a Seeds of Change catalog, RootZone, a Down-To-Earth
product. The blurb describes it as a blend of mycorrhizal fungi,
beneficial bacteria, and humic acid, $11.50US for 8 oz.
Suggested application rate is 1/2 teaspoon per transplant
(more for trees and shrubs).

[amideutch]

I came across another site with a couple interesting products which I ordered as well. The products are DIEHARD Transplant and DIEHARD BioRush. I ordered 8 oz. transplant and 1/4 pound BioRush. Here's the link. They are up in Ray's neighborhood. Ami

http://www.centralcoastwilds.com/

[rnewste]

Darn you Ami, that's ANOTHER 'Tainer I have to build now for the Myth-Busters Challenge!!

I ordered one pound of the BioRush, but did not order any of the Transplant as the description talked only about trees and shrubs. Also, I did not see much difference between the two other than the jel in the Transplant, and I don't want to screw up the wicking in the 'Tainer.

Now STOP finding all these new bio products for us to test!!!!!!!

Ray

[amideutch]

Ray, go to my "Organic Growing" thread this forum, and click on the link provided. Once the site come up click on "Benificial Micro Organisms", then click on "The Benifits of Benificial Organisms". Then you will know the rest of the story. Ami

[amideutch]

Dice, in regards to the SubCulture test Im beginning to think the clogging of the filters was also due to the fungi colonizing the filter rather than just particulate matter. Most aquariam wet-dry filters use a type of media consisting of plastic balls with spikes or 1" long ceramic hollow tubes just so the micro organisms have a place to colonize without resticting water flow and do their job of filtering and removing the bad guys from the water. Disease can be a problem in hydro but is mostly caused by careless sanitation practices. This test was mainly towards the production increasing aspect of the product where it excelled. Ami

[dice]

Dice, in regards to the SubCulture test Im beginning to think the clogging of the filters was also due to the fungi colonizing the filter rather than just particulate matter.

That is what it looked like to me.

Reading the section on compost tea at the site posted in the
Organic Growing thread
( https://growguide.opengrow.com/Organic_Growing )
I am reminded that a test comparing compost tea with
SubCulture or any similar product needs to use fresh compost
tea (that would go for aerated manure tea or earthworm
casting tea, too) to get meaninful results. Any organisms
in it that require air in their environment to survive are not
going to survive long sitting in a bucket of water or in a jar
on a shelf with no air in it. One needs to make it and then use it
immediately or it becomes just a nutrient solution with some
anaerobic organisms in it (although I wonder if spores for the aerobic
organisms in the compost, manure, or earthworm castings would end
up suspended in an extract and perhaps repopulate a container mix
once they were exposed to the air in it; there is probably some time
limit on how long the spores stay viable suspended in water).

They make a good point about possible pathogenic bacteria
(E. Coli, etc) in manure, too. Only thoroughly composted manure
should be used to make manure tea, aerated or not.

Edit:
I have not actually used manure tea for anything. I usually have
compost and earthworm castings around, and manure can make
its contribution just as well mixed into the soil or compost pile.

[dice]

(quoting myself in an earlier message)

That was another question I had about the bacteria in
Actinovate: since it weakens the cell walls in some pathogenic
soil fungi, will it do that to mycorhizzae, too? (Is it a waste
to use both Actinovate and mycorhizzae together?)

This page on Symbios Pumpkin Pro seems to answer that
question:

http://www.reforest.com/extreme_gardening.php

(If Actinovate is compatible with the mycorhizzae supplied by
Symbios, it is probably compatible with mycorhizzae in general.)