Siberia / Siberian questions

[Wi-sunflower]

Dice brought to my attention the fact that seeds I sent him with the name Siberian were producing PL foliage, tho they should be RL. Tho the seeds I sent him were my own saved seeds, the purchased seeds I have are also growing PL. The seeds I have are from HPS a Jungs company.

The plants and tomatoes I got from those seeds are small and early and because none of the catalogs I've looked at mention leaf type, I had no idea I had something wrong.

Dice also brought up the fact that Siberia (the original smuggled out variety that Totally Tomatoes featured for many years) to him is a dwarf rugose variety.

I have problems with that. I used to get my seed from TT and grew it for many years and never saw it as dwarf or rugose. Very early and small tomatoes, yes. I still have just a very small amount of seed (also from HPS) that is labled Siberia and it's producing nice RL plants, but not rugose or stocky dwarf.

I also looked up the description for Siberian in SSE public catalog and they have it as "dwarf sprawling". Not sure how a plant can be both dwarf AND sprawling.

I don't know of any catalog that still lists the original Siberia tho I have copies of the old catalogs and dwarf is not in the description. Unfortunately neither is the leaf type.

So what do I have for both Siberia and Siberian and what SHOULD those 2 varieties be ??

Carol

[lumierefrere]

I grow Siberia from a source in Sweden. It's a dwarf rugose. Not that early for me, the tomatoes aren't all that small, larger than a cherry. I quite enjoy it which is why I keep growing it and have several on the plant stand right now.

Barb

[carolyn137]

Carol, you also saw that I responded in that same thread that Siberia and Siberian were different varieties and that most folks think Siberian is far the best variety and also referred folks to the public SSE catalog where it's listed and where I see you went to check.

Siberia is a dwarf rugose variety and was offered by Siberia Seeds in Canada, allegedly from someone who brought them from the former USSR and I don't know if they were indeed smuggled in or not, and doubt that b'c there was no need to smuggle them into Canada. The earliest SSE listing I see for Siberia was in 1984 from CV Siberia Seeds in Canada.

Aha, I just picked up my 1985 SSE Yearbook and found the following listing for Ron Driscoll of Siberia Seeds, Olds Alberta, Canada.

And here's what he had to say in 1985:

Siberia, red bush tomato, originally from Siberia, brought to Canada in a hankerchief, sets fruits as low as 38F, heavy producer of 3-4 oz fruits, some larger.......O.S. ( original source) ALB DR R, as in Ron Driscoll, owner of Siberia Seeds.

On the same page ALB CO D lists Siberia and says seeds from Driscoll in 1982 and says potato leaf foliage.

Same 1985 Yearbook;

BC IM W in British Columbia lists Siberia and says strong stocky compact plant, thick dark green leaves, from commercial nursery grower ( probably Driscoll, CJM)
in Alberta, Canada who got it from a Russian immigrant lady in 70's, smuggled from Siberia.

And now to Siberian from the 1985 Yearbook looking at just Canadian members:

Newfoundland;

Siberian, med size fruit and plant, outdoors only, can take cold weather

Ontario:

Siberian,early det, small red 2 inch fruits,fairly acidic,

Now from the 1986 SSE Yearbook for Siberia;

14 persons list it, one says PL, two others say heavy green leaves and the rest say nada about foliage. And almost all got it from Siberia Seeds.

And now for Siberian from the 86 Yearbook

Refers back to Will Bonsall in 84 but I didn't dig that Yearbook out.

One person says probably from the Edward Loudon Collection.

Another from Ontario says he doesn't know if it's the same as Siberia but got it from two different sources in 1983.


Another from Ontario says dwarf, rugose leaved, and that's Garrett Pittinger whom I once knew and he knew his tomatoes and Garrett got his seed from the person above who commented about Siberia vs Siberian.

OK, I'm through searching for the day.


back then did everyone distinguish well between PL and RL foliage, as in were heavy green leaves also PL?

Now back to Siberian, current info, my words

Siberian is RL and was first listed in the SSE YEarbook by Will Bonsall, a long time SSE member and still curator for potatoes, who got it from the Edward Lowden Collection in Canada. Edward Lowden was from Ancaster, Ontario, Canada and was an independent seedsman not associateted with the Canadian Experiemental Stations who bred so many wonderful varieties in the past.

Where Lowden got it from is not known but, as far as I know but for sure Siberia and Siberian are two different varieties.

[dice]

Sandhill lists both of them and describes Siberia as rugose,
with no such notation for Siberian. When I grew out Siberia
from Golden Harvest Organics, I got dwarf rugose RL foliage.

[Wi-sunflower]

I've been rather over busy lately and didn't recall another thread here about Siberia / Siberian and didn't even look for anything. Sorry.

Well I don't know what Totally Tomatoes was selling all those years as I never saw any dwarf or rugose type plants.

From what you say Carolyn, what my pack says are Siberian are probably the PL Siberia tho they aren't dwarf.

What my "Siberia" is, who knows. It IS RL, a nice early small 2-3 oz tomato. I will grow them both out and try to document some features with pics this year. I usually plant all my early varieties near each other in the first part of my garden and last year 1 of those 2 had the first ripe tomatoes. I don't remember which now tho.

I will probably get some seed of both from Sandhill next year to get what should be the proper varieties.

Carol