Sabre Ukrainian

[camochef]

Initially, I was avoiding commenting on this thread once the Amishland name came up, as I seem to get into disagrrements with others about Lisa's seeds. I grew Sabre last year, but due to the fact that it was a very bad year here I didn't get anything from them.
I've been growing Amazon Chocolate for 3-4 years now and it's one of my very favorites. My original seed was from Amishland and it was supposed to be P.L. For every 4 P.L. plants I'd get one R.L. The tomatoes themselves looked and tasted the same, all were quite large and they have done well in both dry and wet years.
Last year, the only tomato to beat them tastewise was Dana's Dusky Rose out of all the varieties I grew. They are always in the top few tomatoes that I grow, and I wouldn't think of excluding them from my gardens. As a matter of fact, if I could only grow a few tomatoes, Amazon Chocolate would always be one of them. Most here know what the others would be too! I've never grown another variety like it as far as size and taste. If you can get a chance to try it, I recommend it highly!
I've only purchased seed for it that first time and have been saving seed ever since, I still get a mix of leaf types, even when planting from just potato leaf, there's always one or two regular leaf poping up. They all taste good!
Camo

[Duh_Vinci]

Glad to hear a positive review on the taste, Camo!

A friend who sent me the seeds, said that from the three planted seeds, all three were RL (Amishland source), so his saved seeds he also labeled RL. Seeds from the other source were promised to be PL, and labeled as such on the package.

So this spring, when I planted the seeds, three seeds (originally from Amishland) all 3 came up to be RL, the other three all PL.

Two plants I planted (one of each), in the same soil of the garden, planted at the same time, will see how they do and taste if weather behaves!

Regards,
D

P.S. Sorry for getting of the main topic

[remy]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

The information at Amishland is not to be trusted and that's what nctomatoman is alluding to. Long descriptions, rare, hard to get, adjective after adjective over the top hype, and on and on, just to indicate that something is special, which in many cases is not true. But she renames so many varieties it's hard to tell what something once was.
Perhaps now you realize why Amishland is not listed in the seed sources in that Forum here at Tville.

Earlier this year someone somewhere posted something about her site and I went to look out of curiosity. EVERYTHING is rare,and 10 fresh organic seeds for $2.50, come on. I see Rozovyi(spelled wrong) Flamingo and she has it list as rare and the only US source. I almost emailed her to say she is not the only source, and the tomato is a small determinate vine plus her tomato pic look wrong, but I decided against it.
Remy

[carolyn137]

Camo. there's no reason for you to avoid posting about Amishland. You and I have discussed it before and you know how I feel about Lisa and I know how you feel. And how do you think I feel when I see varieties I've introduced with histories that are partly fictional, as is true for both Todd County Amish and Amish Potato Leaf? And how do you think quite a few of us feel when we see that variety names have been altered?

And you'll note that in my post above I made a point of saying that some don't really care about correct histories or names for every variety they grow and I think that's true of you and some others when it comes to Amazon Chocolate b/c you like the taste and the variety itself, which is OK with me and others if that's what your criteria for a variety is.

If the decision to grow something is based on taste alone then that's fine for some, but not always true for me and some others b'c I expect commercial seed sellers to be telling the truth about names as well as giving correct histories, and not say this is rare, an exclusive, hard to get, etc., for many varieties when it isn't true.

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Amazon_Chocolate

Above is a link to Tania's Amazon Chocolate page and you can see the comments she made about genetic instability and differences in fruit size. I just checked the current 2010 SSE YEarbook and there are others who have grown it and again, some with PL and some with RL foliage and different fruit sizes that are 6 oz for one ( Neil is no longer listing it but he also got 6 oz as noted on Tania's page) and from 10 oz up to a pound for others.

One can't always assume that an RL plant is the same as the original PL variety b/c there's more than one way that an orginal PL can become an RL which in some cases can lead to more that one gene being changed as would be not be true if it were a simple spontaneous mutation.

[camochef]

Carolyn,
Seems the same disagreement is going on forever. I understand your position and I surely don't condone business practises that some use, but no-one has ever come up with another variety name that is anything like Amazon Chocolate. I would be willing to accept it if you did., but I won't stop growing or eating what is one of the best tomatoes I've ever grown.
I'm not sure what others are growing either with the sizes and weights listed at Tatiana's. I've been growing them for a few years now and 95% are between 3/4 lbs and a lb. in weight and some even larger. My smallest was about 8 1/2 oz. and that was a rarity. I have found them to be great tasting with great texture no matter the weather conditions. To deny yourself the pleasure of such a tasty tomato because you don't care for the supplier seems almost unreal for someone that's an expert on tomatoes. Not trying to be disrespectful here either, but I have a hard time understanding how anyone condemn's something without trying it themselves.
It's proven itself year after year to be one of the best tasting tomatoes that I grow. It even beat my favorite Cowlick's Brandywine this past season, but then so did seven others.
So, still trying to avoid an argument, but forced to defend a great tasting slicer! Not trying to defend the supplier or her business practices.
I too find fault with the constant responses she gives customers for delays in filling orders. Either being sick, or a death in the family... it seems to be something that she tells the many that I know who have ordered from her. Makes one think she's ordering from elsewhere to fill her orders, and this has been going on for a few years, since I first ordered from her in 2006. But the bottom line is she has given me a lot of great tasting tomatoes, whatever they really are.
Camo, (who should probably learn to keep his mouth shut)

[carolyn137]

Carolyn,
Seems the same disagreement is going on forever. I understand your position and I surely don't condone business practises that some use, but no-one has ever come up with another variety name that is anything like Amazon Chocolate. I would be willing to accept it if you did., but I won't stop growing or eating what is one of the best tomatoes I've ever grown.

****

I wrote a response to you Camo and then it wouldn't post so now I have to try and remember what I wrote.

Yes, the disagreement will go on forever b'c there are differences of opinion about the site Amishland Seeds. This thread is not about arguments, as you wrote above or debates, rather, it's a larger issue than that.

No one has even suggested that you stop growing and eating a variety that you like as you posted above. That isn't the issue. And at the end of the post you said you should keep your mouth shut, but why should you b'c everyone is entitled to post what they think about Amishland.

And no one is saying that Amazon Chocolate in particular is not a good variety. And the same holds true for any variety Lisa features.

The issue as I and some others see it is larger than any specific tomato variety. it's a website where there are misrepresentations of many variety names, variety descriptions, higher prices than many places which was commented on above, and representing many varieties as rare, hard to get, exclusives, when they aren't. And sometimes customers have not been treated fairly as at least I've seen from feedback elsewhere.

For many of us it's a moral issue in terms of business practices at a commercial site that are totally unacceptable to many of us.

I've repeatedly said that if you and others are pleased with what you buy from Lisa, regardless of the other issues that have been raised, then that's your own opinion to which you are of course entitled and you should then keep buying tomato seeds from her.

So no arguments, no debates, rather, unacceptable business practices at a commercial site as seen by many tomato growers.

[camochef]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I wrote a response to you Camo and then it wouldn't post so now I have to try and remember what I wrote.
I hate when that happens! It's never the same, the second time around!

Yes, the disagreement will go on forever b'c there are differences of opinion about the site Amishland Seeds. This thread is not about arguments, as you wrote above or debates, rather, it's a larger issue than that.

No one has even suggested that you stop growing and eating a variety that you like as you posted above. That isn't the issue. And at the end of the post you said you should keep your mouth shut, but why should you b'c everyone is entitled to post what they think about Amishland.

And no one is saying that Amazon Chocolate in particular is not a good variety. And the same holds true for any variety Lisa features.
Amazon Chocolate is just one of many varieties that I had obtained at Lisa's that stood out repeatedly as top performers. Her Brandywine -Glicks is right up there with my favorite Brandywine, Gigantesque is another that has delighted many the past few years.
Lancaster County Pink, was a great tomato too, but dropped a little in popularity here last year as the weather was quite disagreeable towards tomatoes.
Her Brandywine Stumps and Brandywine-Sudduths were very good Brandywines also. Her Sudduth's strain out produced the Sudduth's I was growing from seven other distributers.
Ballad and Amish Rose were both quite good too! Her Tiffen Mennonite produced huge tomatoes putting the same variety by other suppliers to shame. Add to that, the fact that I always had 100% germination from her seeds, even after years of storage on my part (I just used up the very last of the seed from my two shipments from her in 2007).

The issue as I and some others see it is larger than any specific tomato variety. it's a website where there are misrepresentations of many variety names, variety descriptions, higher prices than many places which was commented on above, and representing many varieties as rare, hard to get, exclusives, when they aren't. And sometimes customers have not been treated fairly as at least I've seen from feedback elsewhere.
No argument on her using sensationalism to sell her products. but in todays world it seems common. 10 seeds for $2.50 may seem high, but allows many to try more varieties of seeds than they would normally paying $3.99 or more for 20-30 seeds.

For many of us it's a moral issue in terms of business practices at a commercial site that are totally unacceptable to many of us.
I try not to pass morel judgement on anyone, especially in todays world, although I do have difficulty with...

I've repeatedly said that if you and others are pleased with what you buy from Lisa, regardless of the other issues that have been raised, then that's your own opinion to which you are of course entitled and you should then keep buying tomato seeds from her.
You and I won't be around forever, and in my case thats getting to be more on my mind than you can imagine, but hopefully Amazon Chocolate and other tasty varieties will be. It would be a real shame to lose such a wonderful tasting tomato due to someone talking others out of growing it.
I haven't bought any seeds in a couple years now, and I don't see me buying many in the future either as I intend to reduce my tomato gardens more every year now as I cannot continue to grow the numbers I have in the past.

So no arguments, no debates, rather, unacceptable business practices at a commercial site as seen by many tomato growers.

Hopefully, no more arguments from me as I'm not the public defender here in Pennsylvania. I'm just an old man that recognizes a great tasting tomato when I get to try one.
Enjoy!

[camochef]

Jsamaha,
Sorry for participating in taking this so far off track, I do apoligize!
Camo

[jsamaha]

No apologies necessary. I agree with Carolyn; you are entitled to your opinion and the right to grow what you please. Thank you for sharing, and I have bought some varieties based off of your opinion alone. For your information, I am growing two PL Amazon Chocolate plants at present. One is in my garden and the other in my sister's. These two plants are the most vigorous to date and have set the most fruit (excluding cherry toms). They look to be huge tomatoes, and I cannot wait to taste!!

[Andrey_BY]

Carolyn, I've tried to avoid her wrong lyeing PR about my varieties I've sent her in 2006 or 2007 but nothing has happen on her her web-site after she had promised me to make all the nessesary corrections. And I've never been on Amishland again because I know Lisa just can't charge her habits.
Probably we should think about black list for such tomato web-sources like Amishland here at the special section of Tomatoville.
And I'm always welcome to share any info about any tomato vareities from our part of the world. But unfortunately it's too many black tomatoes of CIS origin now to identify Amazon Chocolate right...

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Andrey_BY

Carolyn, I've tried to avoid her wrong lyeing PR about my varieties I've sent her in 2006 or 2007 but nothing has happen on her her web-site after she had promised me to make all the nessesary corrections. And I've never been on Amishland again because I know Lisa just can't charge her habits.
Probably we should think about black list for such tomato web-sources like Amishland here at the special section of Tomatoville.
And I'm always welcome to share any info about any tomato vareities from our part of the world. But unfortunately it's too many black tomatoes of CIS origin now to identify Amazon Chocolate right...

Andrey, I can understand your frustration, but know that many folks have contacted her about errors with variety names, changing variety names, falsifying descriptions and more.

it's one reason I haven't contacted her about the problems with some of my varieties that I introduced b'c I know nothing will be done. And also b'c I was one who also had contacted her in the past with no response at all, which was also the same no repsonse that others got.

She just doesn't care.

[nctomatoman]

I just had a look (for laughs) at some of her over the top prose. My favorite du jour - Orange Russian 117 ("this gorgeous tomato hails from the famous seed bank of the former Soviet Union").

I guess Jeff Dawson was doing a sabbatical there when he created this not long ago? Or is California part of the former Soviet Union?

Golden Queen is another favorite...she is selling the more recent orange fruited one, not the bright yellow 1882 Livingston release (though she mixes them both in the descriptions)....

[Andrey_BY]

Craig, I think Russia will be very happy to swap Alaska for California since we have been waiting for money for Alaska since 1867 and there are so many Russians living now in Cali

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Andrey_BY

Craig, I think Russia will be very happy to swap Alaska for California since we are still waiting for money for Alaska since 1867 and there are so many Russians living now in Cali

You win on that one Andrey and thanks for a good laugh .

[remy]

Andrey,
Good one!
Remy