descriptions of seeds 4 sale

WSG · February 10, 2011

Hi, I'm new here, and new to growing tomatoes.

I'm wondering about putting descriptions for my tomato seeds for sale or even trade at some point.

Descriptions of known seeds are on every website they are offered, but at some time or other, the seed/plant became first known to someone who put the original description there.

If someone then bought the tomato, and saved the seed or bought seed and grew it out for sale, then wanted to sell the seeds or tomatoes/plants, Would it be infringement of any sort, to describe the tomato as their source had described it?

Or should they come up with their own unique description based soley on what they observe their plant to do.

What about histories, such as "bred/grew/found/given by "so and so?"

Only the person who created/grew it for generations/bred it would have that information to begin with. All other descriptions would copy that fact.

Just wondering.

Also, what is the opinion on photos of any given variety. Do you all care if anyone else uses your photo until they can take their own. or do ya'll feel that images belong to whomever took them.

If I ever get decent photos of my tomatoes, I wouldn't care who "borrowed" them because whom ever did, is probably a tomato fan and using the tomato photo to promote heirloom tomatoes.

Maybe I'm ignorant about all this?

fortyonenorth · February 10, 2011

Welcome to Tomatoville. Yours is a good, and tricky, question. I'll provide a few comments and I'm sure others will weigh-in as well.

First, don't use photos or descriptions without permission. It could be against copyright laws. I would say this is an absolute necessity with regard to photos and a very nice courtesy with regard to descriptions. I think its fair to say that descriptive information is generally accepted to be almost "open source." The history of many heirloom tomatoes is often repeated verbatim in much the same way that a legend is. However, if I were you, I'd take the commonly available information and put it into my own words. Whatever you do, don't embellish. A tomato may have "..been discovered by Jane Doe who said she found it growing near an old farmstead..." but that doesn't necessarily make it "...an heirloom from the early 20th century."

Sherry_AK · February 10, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSG

Also, what is the opinion on photos of any given variety. Do you all care if anyone else uses your photo until they can take their own. or do ya'll feel that images belong to whomever took them.

Hi, and welcome!

Most of us do indeed care deeply about anyone else using our photos without permission. There is a lengthy thread here on that very subject regarding Dr. Tomato. And, yes, I do feel the image is mine if I took the photo.

I have happily shared photos with a couple individuals here for posting on their web sites. Both were kind enough to request permission first. I have also seen at least one of my photos posted elsewhere when I did not grant permission. This was posted by another individual from this forum. I should have challenged it at the time, and can no longer recall where it was.

Thanks for asking about this.

Sherry

WSG · February 10, 2011

ok, thanks for your opinion. I will wait for my grow outs.

travis · February 10, 2011

A few years ago, I listed a tomato in the Seed Savers Exchange yearbook which tomato had never been listed before. I gave the historic facts as I knew them and added detailed observations gathered during my growing season, etc. Well, about a year later someone with a tomato blog pretty much cut and pasted my description on her blog without asking or giving credit to her source of that information. It still gauls my blippity blip to see that on her blog today.

Additionally, there are several instances where seed vendors have posted tomato photographs they've stolen from other growers or vendors who are members of this forum. And you can read the rancorous comments made if someone would post a link to those conversations. I cannot remember a single person who defended a person's right to cut and paste photographs without first obtaining permission.

Obviously, I feel the same way about both photographs and text - they belong to the photographer or the writer. And it's theft, politely referred to as plagerism.

Sherry_AK · February 10, 2011

I don't know if this was the only thread, but...

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=9387

fortyonenorth · February 10, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by travis

I feel the same way about both photographs and text - they belong to the photographer or the writer.

I should clarify my above post...I didn't mean to suggest that it's o.k. to cut/paste the detailed descriptions of a tomato. Rather, how many ways can you say, "This tomato was collected by Ben Quisenberry in the early 1980s from Dorothy Sudduth Hill of Tennessee whose family had grown it for nearly a century."

travis · February 10, 2011

I probably should've added that many of the variety descriptions you see in seed catalogs are direct quotes from the seed producer or breeder. For example, you may see varieties in Tomato Growers Supply, or Parks, or Stokes, etc. described word for word as they were described in the sales literature written by Harris Moran or Peto or Seminis or Syngenta, or whoever produced and distributed massive quantities of the seed to those who sell smaller quantities to us home gardeners. I don't see anything wrong with including those "facts" in subsequent listings or descriptions of varietal seed, so long as the seed remains pure and correct to the original germplasm.

And same goes for 41N's comment. I agree and would consider that example pretty much an "in common usage" type blurb.

Stepheninky · February 10, 2011

Red large beefsteak 1.5 - 2 pounds that is slightly flattened with ribbed fruit

That is just a description of what it looks like so that type of information I would think is ok to use and everybody does.

I think though you would be better off making it more personal to your experiences.

The Made Up Mater: This is a large red beefsteak that weighs 1.5 - 2 lbs that has slightly flattened ribbed fruit that had good (good, great, moderate) production for us in our Texas climate. The fruit taste (great, wonderful, etc...) and is perfect (on/in/as/make a burger, sandwich, BLT, salad, fresh tomato sauce, you get the ideal)

or was a moderate producer but the flavor maked up for it with that ole time great tomato taste.

Any ways just trying to say it does not have to be super complicated and you do not have to come off like a used car sales man either. Just give basic good info and good tomato seeds will sell themselves.

Just do not over hype the description,

I bought a tomato from one of the vender's that post here and her description included did not really do well in my climate (she is in the north I think) but I have heard it does better in the South East. The tomato originated 35 -40 miles from my house so I bought it, and that honesty actually impressed me more than any hyped up description would. after reading that I would feel comfortable buying other tomatoes from her, which I have.

Anyways just sharing some ideals for you.

Tom C zone 4/5 · February 10, 2011

Permissions are a wonderful concience salver. That said, a descriptor of what you grew IE an indeterminate rl making pink oblate beefsteak shaped fruit weighting up to a pound and a half; is a simple statement of what you got from your grow-out.

The provinance, of who you got seed from is simply another fact. You are entitled to say who and what.

A photo of somebody elses tomatoes muddies the facts as you present them.

As Sgt. Friday so eloquently said: "Just the facts ma'am".

Now if you was selling tomatoes or seed, how much manure to shovel with seeds will be up to your concience. "I" think your entitled to rank the tomatoes you grew as they taste-apear to you.

WSG · February 10, 2011

Thanks all, I think I'll become a note taker, and just put how it grew for me, in my climate and it's origin according to the generally known information about it.

**carolyn137** · February 10, 2011

Having histories to go along with the basic traits of a variety is great, but in my experience growing OP's, both commerial and heirloom, probably less than 10% have any decent histories. We're lucky to get a country of origin, better still a state or area within that country, better still the person who first grew a variety.

Many of the seed sites take some or all of their blurbs from listings in the SSE YEarbook. And in the paragraph above I was speaking of the about 4000 varieties found in each Yearbook and I have many back copies as well.

One of my passions is digging up histories and it often takes a lot of time online, but to me it's worth it/

There are phrases in my book on heirloom tomatoes that I can spot at many sites.

Dr. Jeff McCormack who used to own SESE used a certain adjective to describe the taste of a certain variety and that word pops up all over the place now.

The variety Polish, sourced to Bill Ellis in PA, used the word brick red to describe it ( but it's really a deep pink) and now I see brick red , or did see it, used for another variety.

So yes, histories help sell seeds but there are many varieties that are great ones that have no histories at all.

frogsleap farm · February 12, 2011

I think what is sometimes lacking in our community is a general respect for individual intellectual property, whether that's for a variety developed by a breeder or a photograph or detailed description provided by a grower. I'm continually amazed at how ofter I seed seed for sale of a variety developed by someone in our community, without any attribution to the breeder.

February 10, 2011	#1
WSG Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: texas Posts: 3	descriptions of seeds 4 sale Hi, I'm new here, and new to growing tomatoes. I'm wondering about putting descriptions for my tomato seeds for sale or even trade at some point. Descriptions of known seeds are on every website they are offered, but at some time or other, the seed/plant became first known to someone who put the original description there. If someone then bought the tomato, and saved the seed or bought seed and grew it out for sale, then wanted to sell the seeds or tomatoes/plants, Would it be infringement of any sort, to describe the tomato as their source had described it? Or should they come up with their own unique description based soley on what they observe their plant to do. What about histories, such as "bred/grew/found/given by "so and so?" Only the person who created/grew it for generations/bred it would have that information to begin with. All other descriptions would copy that fact. Just wondering. Also, what is the opinion on photos of any given variety. Do you all care if anyone else uses your photo until they can take their own. or do ya'll feel that images belong to whomever took them. If I ever get decent photos of my tomatoes, I wouldn't care who "borrowed" them because whom ever did, is probably a tomato fan and using the tomato photo to promote heirloom tomatoes. Maybe I'm ignorant about all this?

February 10, 2011	#9
Stepheninky Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Kentucky Posts: 682	Red large beefsteak 1.5 - 2 pounds that is slightly flattened with ribbed fruit That is just a description of what it looks like so that type of information I would think is ok to use and everybody does. I think though you would be better off making it more personal to your experiences. The Made Up Mater: This is a large red beefsteak that weighs 1.5 - 2 lbs that has slightly flattened ribbed fruit that had good (good, great, moderate) production for us in our Texas climate. The fruit taste (great, wonderful, etc...) and is perfect (on/in/as/make a burger, sandwich, BLT, salad, fresh tomato sauce, you get the ideal) or was a moderate producer but the flavor maked up for it with that ole time great tomato taste. Any ways just trying to say it does not have to be super complicated and you do not have to come off like a used car sales man either. Just give basic good info and good tomato seeds will sell themselves. Just do not over hype the description, I bought a tomato from one of the vender's that post here and her description included did not really do well in my climate (she is in the north I think) but I have heard it does better in the South East. The tomato originated 35 -40 miles from my house so I bought it, and that honesty actually impressed me more than any hyped up description would. after reading that I would feel comfortable buying other tomatoes from her, which I have. Anyways just sharing some ideals for you. __________________ tomatoprojects.blogspot.com

February 10, 2011	#10
Tom C zone 4/5 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: SE Ohio Posts: 253	Permissions are a wonderful concience salver. That said, a descriptor of what you grew IE an indeterminate rl making pink oblate beefsteak shaped fruit weighting up to a pound and a half; is a simple statement of what you got from your grow-out. The provinance, of who you got seed from is simply another fact. You are entitled to say who and what. A photo of somebody elses tomatoes muddies the facts as you present them. As Sgt. Friday so eloquently said: "Just the facts ma'am". Now if you was selling tomatoes or seed, how much manure to shovel with seeds will be up to your concience. "I" think your entitled to rank the tomatoes you grew as they taste-apear to you. __________________ Beyond the mountains, there are more mountains.

February 10, 2011	#12
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	Having histories to go along with the basic traits of a variety is great, but in my experience growing OP's, both commerial and heirloom, probably less than 10% have any decent histories. We're lucky to get a country of origin, better still a state or area within that country, better still the person who first grew a variety. Many of the seed sites take some or all of their blurbs from listings in the SSE YEarbook. And in the paragraph above I was speaking of the about 4000 varieties found in each Yearbook and I have many back copies as well. One of my passions is digging up histories and it often takes a lot of time online, but to me it's worth it/ There are phrases in my book on heirloom tomatoes that I can spot at many sites. Dr. Jeff McCormack who used to own SESE used a certain adjective to describe the taste of a certain variety and that word pops up all over the place now. The variety Polish, sourced to Bill Ellis in PA, used the word brick red to describe it ( but it's really a deep pink) and now I see brick red , or did see it, used for another variety. So yes, histories help sell seeds but there are many varieties that are great ones that have no histories at all. __________________ Carolyn

February 10, 2011	#2
fortyonenorth Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 1,150	Welcome to Tomatoville. Yours is a good, and tricky, question. I'll provide a few comments and I'm sure others will weigh-in as well. First, don't use photos or descriptions without permission. It could be against copyright laws. I would say this is an absolute necessity with regard to photos and a very nice courtesy with regard to descriptions. I think its fair to say that descriptive information is generally accepted to be almost "open source." The history of many heirloom tomatoes is often repeated verbatim in much the same way that a legend is. However, if I were you, I'd take the commonly available information and put it into my own words. Whatever you do, don't embellish. A tomato may have "..been discovered by Jane Doe who said she found it growing near an old farmstead..." but that doesn't necessarily make it "...an heirloom from the early 20th century."

February 10, 2011	#5
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	A few years ago, I listed a tomato in the Seed Savers Exchange yearbook which tomato had never been listed before. I gave the historic facts as I knew them and added detailed observations gathered during my growing season, etc. Well, about a year later someone with a tomato blog pretty much cut and pasted my description on her blog without asking or giving credit to her source of that information. It still gauls my blippity blip to see that on her blog today. Additionally, there are several instances where seed vendors have posted tomato photographs they've stolen from other growers or vendors who are members of this forum. And you can read the rancorous comments made if someone would post a link to those conversations. I cannot remember a single person who defended a person's right to cut and paste photographs without first obtaining permission. Obviously, I feel the same way about both photographs and text - they belong to the photographer or the writer. And it's theft, politely referred to as plagerism.

February 10, 2011	#6
Sherry_AK Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Alaska Zone 3/4 Posts: 1,857	I don't know if this was the only thread, but... http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=9387

February 12, 2011	#13
frogsleap farm Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Minnesota Posts: 568	I think what is sometimes lacking in our community is a general respect for individual intellectual property, whether that's for a variety developed by a breeder or a photograph or detailed description provided by a grower. I'm continually amazed at how ofter I seed seed for sale of a variety developed by someone in our community, without any attribution to the breeder.