Heritage

[WildLife]

I was at the local Armstrong nursery and talked to
a couple tomato shoppers.
1st one was looking for early girl from heritage farms?
2nd was looking for a Heritage tom?
apparently they are the best?



:confused:

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by WildLife

I was at the local Armstrong nursery and talked to
a couple tomato shoppers.
1st one was looking for early girl from heritage farms?
2nd was looking for a Heritage tom?
apparently they are the best?



:confused:

Well Early Girl is a well known hybrid.

No problem with the person asking about a heritage/heirloom variety and they can be gotten almost anywhere in CA. Armstrong Nursery is one of a chain in CA as you know and Gary______ who used to own Hortus Nursery in Pasadena, which closed, manages one of them. THey used to do a Tomatomania each year at Horotus, I've been to one, and Tomatomania is still going on at many locations in CA. And in Long Beach you've got the Fullerton Arboretum Plant sale coming up as well as one at Fullerton College.

So no one place to get heirloom plants in CA b'c they're all over the place.

[WildLife]

Thanks for clearing that up.
1st guy just said EG and when I found a plant he said his wife
only wanted a Heritage.

Next couple, woman and daughter, only new Heritage and
said they were all colors and "the best". :willy:

So there is a heirloom/open poll EG tomato. :cool:

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by WildLife

Thanks for clearing that up.
1st guy just said EG and when I found a plant he said his wife
only wanted a Heritage.

Next couple, woman and daughter, only new Heritage and
said they were all colors and "the best". :willy:

So there is a heirloom/open poll EG tomato. :cool:

Early Girl is an F1 hybrid, not open pollinated (OP).

All heirloom varieties are OP but not all OP's are heirlooms,

[WildLife]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Early Girl is an F1 hybrid, not open pollinated (OP).

All heirloom varieties are OP but not all OP's are heirlooms,

I thought it was and that is why I am confused.
So a F1 from heritage is different than a F1 from someone else?
Different parents and still an EG?

No, that is not right.

Just a reputation?

[habitat_gardener]

Is it possible that Heritage is the name of a wholesale grower that supplies Armstrong Nursery? At my local nurseries (SF bay area), it's usually the case that the biggest, healthiest looking transplants are grown by one supplier (of 3 or 5), http://www.dorights.com/,
which also has deeper 4-inch pots and a good selection of OPs. I've never gotten a wrong plant or a plant that did not produce anything from this source, and I can't say that about at least 2 of the other suppliers I see around here.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by WildLife

I thought it was and that is why I am confused.
So a F1 from heritage is different than a F1 from someone else?
Different parents and still an EG?

No, that is not right.

Just a reputation?

AS Habitat said, perhaps they're referring to a place called Heritage Farms where plants are also sold. When I Google Heritage Farms I don't come up with anything in CA.

A known hybrid is the same when it comes to seeds that are sold or plants that are sold, there's no difference. So Early Girl F1 will be the same everywhere as to seeds and plants, unless the place you get them from goofed with labelling or something like that.

Without knowing what Heritage Farms refers to it's really impossible to comment further, but I would assume it's either a place where OP tomato varieties are sold as plants or a place that sells heirloom plants to retail outlets as habitat suggested.

[dice]

"Heritage Farms" are all over the place. I think it is just a
common name for a farm. A Google search turned up 3 or 4
in different states on the first page of links.

They may have gotten an Early Girl plant one time (the F1)
at a plant sale that had a "Heritage Farms" logo on the plant
label. They liked the Early Girl plant, and they figured that
tomatoes from there are good. You could probably get them
an Early Girl F1 plant elsewhere, and they would probably
still like it.

(What is a better tasting OP equivalent to Early Girl F1? Still
testing. There are many OP heirlooms that early, and lots
of them have more flavor, but they are not quite the same
tomato: smaller fruit, different shaped, different colors, more
seeds, determinate instead of indeterminate, etc. For a red
slicer, I might try Early Rouge, but it is not commonly found
at plant sales and perhaps not as early. Clear Pink Early,
Orange-1, and Campbell's 1327 would be other good choices
for an early slicer, big enough not to be inconvenient for
sandwiches.)

The second question sounds like simply someone confused
about "Heritage" or "Heirloom" tomatoes ("all different
colors" is a definite sign that this is not one cultivar called
"Heritage"). You could give them a plant of any OP heirloom
that does well in your area and tell them that it is a Heritage
tomato, and they would likely be happy with it.

Peters Seed Research had an OP that was developed from an
earlier version of Early Girl than the F1 that is sold these days,
but it was not called "Early Girl OP" or anything like that. The
cultivar name is PSR 37. (I have a few seeds of this one soaking
to replenish my seed stock.) PSR 37 seemed bland to me the
one year I grew it, but a relative liked it. It is early, PL,
indeterminate, with what seemed to me bigger fruit than
Early Girl F1. Any disease tolerances for PSR 37 were not
documented on the vendor's web site when last they listed
it.

[WildLife]

Thank you





............................

[dice]

Originally Posted by WildLife

Thank you

No problem, hope we helped. People that liked Early Girl
may find Early Goliath a good choice if you can find it at
a plant sale in your area. It is also a hybrid, but fairly
popular with some growers, and I expect that it has larger
fruit than Early Girl.

[travis]

Yes to what Dice said about PSR-37, an open pollinated version of the former Early Girl hybrid tomato.

The currently available Early Girl tomato is called Early Girl Improved and yes, it's a hybrid. When you grow out saved seeds from Early Girl Improved (a regular leaf type), you also will get about 25% potato leaf vines similar to PSR-37, so apparently the producer of Early Girl Improved continues to use a potato leaf line as one of the parents similar or same as one of the parent lines of Early Girl (original).

You might also be interested that Fourth of July, another early regular leaf variety I think from the same breeder, will throw 25% potato leaf vines in the F2. So, maybe a connection regarding the parent lines.

All the potato leaf F2s I've grown from Early Girl, Early Girl Improved and Fourth of July resemble PSR-37's leaf shape, fruit size, fruit color, fruit shape (tendency for pointed blossom end), and flavor (juicy, zingy but not really outstanding).

With regard to "heritage," I feel it's a more accessible designation than "heirloom" because it's more all encompassing when discussing old, open pollinated tomato varieties both family hand-me-downs and commercial standards. I'd also submit, although expecting a reaction, that Big Boy might be considered a "heritage hybrid."

[beefyboy]

I am growing the Early Girl Improved version from Pinetree and PSR-37 side by side. I have a total of 3 Early Girl Improved and have one that is regular leaf and two that are potato leaf. The RL type is similar in flavor to the Early girls I have grown in the past, and that is Bland and what I consider mushy. The improved version is much different when Potato leaf and is three lobed versus 4 lobed from the RL type. I did not realize the leaf shape of the RL till I went to my parents house because I had given them that plant and planted it in a 5 gal. bucket for them. Never paying attention to the different leaf at all but label everything I plant of course!
PSR is very different in growth and a slow grower here in Fl. I am not impressed at all and have still not tasted my first fruit of it and it is in the same earthbox as my improved version.
I saved seed from the PL and just want to play and see what I get next yr. Any feedback is welcome!

[RinTinTin]

Armstrong's has been around since the 1880's. John (Armstrong) started out growing Eucalyptus and olive trees. His success, and free time led him into cultivating roses. For the first half of the 20th century, he was 'the go-to guy' in southern Calif. to buy roses from. I remember going with my mother in the 40's-50's to Armstrong's to get roses.

The shoppers that were mentioned in the original post had probably read some blurb in the LA Times about "heritage" tomatoes, and were looking for them, as if it was a species of multi-colored fruit. People who know little, will read one article and (since they are now experts) insist on the best one available. Way too many yuppies in SoCal nowadays.

The current site of Armstrong's on Wilshire Blvd, where W.L.A. meets Santa Monica is several acres! The land would probably bring $10 million at auction. It is the same site I visited with my mother in the 40's!

[travis]

Originally Posted by beefyboy

I am growing the Early Girl Improved version from Pinetree and PSR-37 side by side. I have a total of 3 Early Girl Improved and have one that is regular leaf and two that are potato leaf. I saved seed from the PL and just want to play and see what I get next yr. Any feedback is welcome!

Beefyboy, I may be wrong, but I think Peto is producing only one Early Girl at this time, and it is the same as or maybe an "improved" version of the Early Girl Improved they've been selling now for several years.

When visiting various nurseries that produce bedding plants from seed, I've seen potato leaf plants mixed in with Early Girl Improved seedlings every year for the past 6 years. The ratio of potato leaf plants is very low, like maybe one in a thousand. What I think is happening is that the seeds are produced in Thailand or India or wherever, and the seed harvesters occasionally pick an untagged fruit by mistake. Apparently, Peto is using the potato leaf parent as the seed bearing parent.

If you got a higher ratio of potato leaf to regular leaf seedlings out of a packet of Pinetree seeds for Early Girl Improved, I'd guess someone is selling F2 or F3 seeds, and you just beat the expected odds.

Another thing I notice about Earl Girl Improved is the foliage starts out and remains noticably paler green than many other varieties, and that hue of green seems to match the hue in the potato leaf wrong types I've seen. Do your regular leaf Early Girls look as pale as your potato leaf ones? I don't mean sick, just a few shades lighter than what you might see on a Big Beef or Celebrity, etc.

[beefyboy]

Hello Travis! Glad you responded and gave me such thorough research. I have been growing early girl Improved for as long as Pinetree has sold it which is about 3 years now and have not had the regular leaf until this year. Of course I only grow a few each year so it is surely not a good trial on how many are PL versus RL. Like I was stating though, everything is different! fruit shape, RL leaf, texture, flavor, a real dud in the RL type. It is interesting because I taste this tomato out to many people and they always ask for it and tell me that it is there favorite tomato out of all they have tried from me, and that alone is impressive.
As far as the color? I am growing in earthboxes so I do not know if it has anything to do with it since in boxes they stay very vibrant and healthy, but they are a nice green, not pale at all. I have a pic of a huge cluster from this plant and will post it on here today so you can see it for yourself. Of course, if I can figure out how to load it on here!! lol