Gathering some interesting data on seed age vs germ success - Page 2

**nctomatoman** · March 11, 2011

Life peeking above the soilless mix line on one of the 1995 saved seeds....so that makes 16 years at least borderline oK (got to see germination percentage and seedling quality)....day 8 for that seed. Will do another check later tonight - a day of sunshine coming through the window on the flat typically brings on some progress - we shall see.

**nctomatoman** · March 13, 2011

Today is day 10 - here is what I am seeing:

Seed saved in 2003 (8 years old) - emerged in 4 and 5 days (both up)
Seed saved in 2001 (10 years old) - emerged in 4 (two varieties), 5 (two varieties), and 6 (1 variety) days - all five up
Seed saved in 1998 (13 years old) - emerged in 5 days (one variety, and it is up)
Seed saved in 1997 (14 years old) - emerged in 6 and 7 days (both up)
Seed saved in 1996 (15 years old) - one emerged in 7 days, two yet to show.
Seed saved in 1995 (16 years old) - emerged in 7 days (one variety), 9 days (one variety), 10 days (one variety), and one no show - so three of four up in 10 days

Seed saved in 1994 (17 years old) - no emergence on the three varieties yet.
Seed saved in 1993 (18 years old) - no emergence on the single variety yet.
Seed saved in 1991 (20 years old) - no emergence on the four varieties yet.

I am pleased to see germination in 16 year old seed - still only day 10.

Just for interest, I've had some long delays this season - Billy Goat hot pepper from 2006 took 25 days to germinate, Festival hot pepper saved in 2004 took 33 days, Mexico Midget tomato saved last year tool 25 days.

So, a long way to go before we write the book on this experiment!

earthbox13 · March 23, 2011

My uncle gave me several packages of old commercial tomato seeds a few years ago during one of my many trips through Buffalo, NY. Thanks to Nctomatoman’s post on germinating old seed I remembered the seeds my uncle had given me and decided to see if I could get them to germinate. There are three varieties I have started: New Yorker (1986), Rutgers (1988) and Delicious (1994). Three days ago I started by soaking the seeds in water with a “pinch of blue stuff” and did not have time to get to them until last night. So, they were soaking for almost 48 hours. I started to move the seeds over to some wet paper towels and noticed 3 of the New Yorker have germinated as well as several Rutgers and Delicious. I guess I am most shocked by the New Yorker—after all it was marked packaged for sale 1986. That makes the seeds at least 25 years old. The New Yorker seeds were packaged by Crossman Seeds of East Rochester, NY. I will post the final germination rate for the 3 varieties later.
Scott

**nctomatoman** · March 27, 2011

I've not updated this in some time, but there is a few new developments - here is the summary to date (still looking at whether the germinate or not - yet to look at numbers or seedling quality)

Seed saved in 2003 (8 years old) - emerged in 4 and 5 days (both up)
Seed saved in 2001 (10 years old) - emerged in 4 (two varieties), 5 (two varieties), and 6 (1 variety) days - all five up
Seed saved in 1998 (13 years old) - emerged in 5 days (one variety, and it is up)
Seed saved in 1997 (14 years old) - emerged in 6 and 7 days (both up)
Seed saved in 1996 (15 years old) - one emerged in 7 days, one in 12 days, one in 22 days, all three up.
Seed saved in 1995 (16 years old) - emerged in 7 days (one variety), 9 days (one variety), 10 days (one variety), and one no show - so three of four up in 10 days

So for those above - seed up to 16 years old - 17 varieties started, and 16 eventually germinated - today is day 24 - not giving up yet!

Seed saved in 1994 (17 years old) - no emergence on the three varieties yet.
Seed saved in 1993 (18 years old) - observed germination this morning for the single sample - day 24.
Seed saved in 1991 (20 years old) - no emergence on the four varieties yet.

Of seed 17 years or older, seeing life in 1 out of 8 lots planted.

**nctomatoman** · June 5, 2011

Well, I guess it should be time for a final report!

There really wasn't anything new to add to the seed that ranged from 1995 to 2003, as listed in the previous post. Only one 1995 saved variety (Peak of Perfection) failed to show. It is great to be growing Brandywine and Mortgage Lifter (both Mullens and Halladay) from 1995 seed - 16 years old!

What is different is that 1994 saved varieties did eventually make an appearance - and I am growing Brandywine and Cherokee Purple from that 17 year old seed. It wasn't vigorous, and I only got a few of each, but they did eventually take off and look great. Only 1994 saved Abraham Lincoln (from the USDA) didn't germinate - but I did get one 1996 saved seed plant. And....there is one seedling from 1993 saved Cherokee Purple that is up and barely growing - was one of those mule type, all cot. plants, but the center seems to be growing out of it. If it does, I certainly will grow it out - 18 year old seed!

Sadly, none of the 1991 saved, 20 year old seed germinated. But still....it was a good little experiment!

So, this is allowing me to do a consistency check on some varieties, as follows:

Brandywine 95-71 - 2 generations removed from the seed Roger Wentling sent to me (Roger got it from Ben Q)
Brandywine 94-2 - 1 generation removed from Roger's seed.
Brandywine 01-25 - 1 generation removed from 94-2
Brandywine 01-5 - 3 generations removed from Roger's seed
Brandywine 01-11- 4 generations removed from Roger's seed

Cherokee Chocolate 96-3 - 1 generation removed from the appearance of Cherokee Chocolate from Cherokee Purple seed
Cherokee Chocolate 96-9 - ditto
Cherokee chocolate 05-55 - 1 generation removed from 96-3
Cherokee Chocolate 01-19 - 2 generations removed from 96-3

Cherokee Purple 01-3 - 1 generation removed from the original seed from JD Green
Cherokee Purple 94-108 - 1 generation removed from original seed
Cherokee Purple 93-2 - saved from grow out of JD's seed

Cherokee Green 97-10 - seed saved from the very first appearing green fruit

Aside from really good eating, the comparisons will be worthwhile also - and I will have lots of fresh seed!

Heritage · June 5, 2011

very interesting and useful data... thanks Craig!

b54red · June 5, 2011

I don't think I'd give up yet. I just had a seed pop up that was planted over a month ago and it was a seed from one year ago. The others of the same variety came up 3 weeks ago. I have given up on seed before only to be surprised to see some come up weeks later. With the age of the seed you are trying to germinate there might be the possibility of some really late sprouting. Keep them moist for a couple of more weeks just to be sure.

**nctomatoman** · June 5, 2011

Whoops - they are long gone! been 60 days....I will try again next year with other old varieties. Esp if my extreme prune, small pot indeterminates grown to a single truss for seed only project works!

sirtanon · October 27, 2011

Glad to see this!

I have some seed sent to me a number of years ago for some old seeds going back to '95-'97 that I plan to start for Spring 2012 growing. I'm pretty sure these came from Carolyn Male, although I can't be 100% sure as some of my documentation from that time period was lost with a hard drive crash. In any case, they are:

Noire de Coseboeuf '95
Mary Robinson '95
Fandango '96
Kimberley '97

I have between 6 and 12 seeds of each and plan on starting at least 4 of each variety, and saving seeds for future use if successful. I was hoping presoaking, blue-stuff, etc.. would help with this, and it gives me some extra confidence seeing your success, Craig.

Won't be starting any of these for at least another month, but I will try to update once I have results.

Mike Maurer · October 28, 2011

Being very new to this I hope I'm not asking a dumb question, but by "blue stuff" are you referring to the commercial fertilizer M. G.? I just stumbled on to this thread and I have found it very informative. I was planning on throwing away seed that was over three years old, but I know now that's not necessary! I was hoping that Scott/earthbox 13 was going to post his results on the 1980's seed.
Mike
Mike

Jeannine Anne · October 28, 2011

Thank you Craig for a very interesting post, fascinating.

XX Jeannine

dice · October 29, 2011

"Blue stuff" could be MG or one of the Peters fertilizers. Long ago,
it could have been Rapid-Gro, too. The main feature is that it is all
synthetic, water soluble, and contains nitrogen (nitrate by preference
rather than ammonia-based nitrogen).

March 11, 2011	#16
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Life peeking above the soilless mix line on one of the 1995 saved seeds....so that makes 16 years at least borderline oK (got to see germination percentage and seedling quality)....day 8 for that seed. Will do another check later tonight - a day of sunshine coming through the window on the flat typically brings on some progress - we shall see. __________________ Craig

March 13, 2011	#17
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Today is day 10 - here is what I am seeing: Seed saved in 2003 (8 years old) - emerged in 4 and 5 days (both up) Seed saved in 2001 (10 years old) - emerged in 4 (two varieties), 5 (two varieties), and 6 (1 variety) days - all five up Seed saved in 1998 (13 years old) - emerged in 5 days (one variety, and it is up) Seed saved in 1997 (14 years old) - emerged in 6 and 7 days (both up) Seed saved in 1996 (15 years old) - one emerged in 7 days, two yet to show. Seed saved in 1995 (16 years old) - emerged in 7 days (one variety), 9 days (one variety), 10 days (one variety), and one no show - so three of four up in 10 days Seed saved in 1994 (17 years old) - no emergence on the three varieties yet. Seed saved in 1993 (18 years old) - no emergence on the single variety yet. Seed saved in 1991 (20 years old) - no emergence on the four varieties yet. I am pleased to see germination in 16 year old seed - still only day 10. Just for interest, I've had some long delays this season - Billy Goat hot pepper from 2006 took 25 days to germinate, Festival hot pepper saved in 2004 took 33 days, Mexico Midget tomato saved last year tool 25 days. So, a long way to go before we write the book on this experiment! __________________ Craig

March 23, 2011	#18
earthbox13 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Colorado Posts: 37	Just wanted to add some anecdotal evidence. My uncle gave me several packages of old commercial tomato seeds a few years ago during one of my many trips through Buffalo, NY. Thanks to Nctomatoman’s post on germinating old seed I remembered the seeds my uncle had given me and decided to see if I could get them to germinate. There are three varieties I have started: New Yorker (1986), Rutgers (1988) and Delicious (1994). Three days ago I started by soaking the seeds in water with a “pinch of blue stuff” and did not have time to get to them until last night. So, they were soaking for almost 48 hours. I started to move the seeds over to some wet paper towels and noticed 3 of the New Yorker have germinated as well as several Rutgers and Delicious. I guess I am most shocked by the New Yorker—after all it was marked packaged for sale 1986. That makes the seeds at least 25 years old. The New Yorker seeds were packaged by Crossman Seeds of East Rochester, NY. I will post the final germination rate for the 3 varieties later. Scott

March 27, 2011	#19
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	I've not updated this in some time, but there is a few new developments - here is the summary to date (still looking at whether the germinate or not - yet to look at numbers or seedling quality) Seed saved in 2003 (8 years old) - emerged in 4 and 5 days (both up) Seed saved in 2001 (10 years old) - emerged in 4 (two varieties), 5 (two varieties), and 6 (1 variety) days - all five up Seed saved in 1998 (13 years old) - emerged in 5 days (one variety, and it is up) Seed saved in 1997 (14 years old) - emerged in 6 and 7 days (both up) Seed saved in 1996 (15 years old) - one emerged in 7 days, one in 12 days, one in 22 days, all three up. Seed saved in 1995 (16 years old) - emerged in 7 days (one variety), 9 days (one variety), 10 days (one variety), and one no show - so three of four up in 10 days So for those above - seed up to 16 years old - 17 varieties started, and 16 eventually germinated - today is day 24 - not giving up yet! Seed saved in 1994 (17 years old) - no emergence on the three varieties yet. Seed saved in 1993 (18 years old) - observed germination this morning for the single sample - day 24. Seed saved in 1991 (20 years old) - no emergence on the four varieties yet. Of seed 17 years or older, seeing life in 1 out of 8 lots planted. __________________ Craig

June 5, 2011	#20
nctomatoman Tomatoville® Moderator Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hendersonville, NC zone 7 Posts: 10,385	Well, I guess it should be time for a final report! There really wasn't anything new to add to the seed that ranged from 1995 to 2003, as listed in the previous post. Only one 1995 saved variety (Peak of Perfection) failed to show. It is great to be growing Brandywine and Mortgage Lifter (both Mullens and Halladay) from 1995 seed - 16 years old! What is different is that 1994 saved varieties did eventually make an appearance - and I am growing Brandywine and Cherokee Purple from that 17 year old seed. It wasn't vigorous, and I only got a few of each, but they did eventually take off and look great. Only 1994 saved Abraham Lincoln (from the USDA) didn't germinate - but I did get one 1996 saved seed plant. And....there is one seedling from 1993 saved Cherokee Purple that is up and barely growing - was one of those mule type, all cot. plants, but the center seems to be growing out of it. If it does, I certainly will grow it out - 18 year old seed! Sadly, none of the 1991 saved, 20 year old seed germinated. But still....it was a good little experiment! So, this is allowing me to do a consistency check on some varieties, as follows: Brandywine 95-71 - 2 generations removed from the seed Roger Wentling sent to me (Roger got it from Ben Q) Brandywine 94-2 - 1 generation removed from Roger's seed. Brandywine 01-25 - 1 generation removed from 94-2 Brandywine 01-5 - 3 generations removed from Roger's seed Brandywine 01-11- 4 generations removed from Roger's seed Cherokee Chocolate 96-3 - 1 generation removed from the appearance of Cherokee Chocolate from Cherokee Purple seed Cherokee Chocolate 96-9 - ditto Cherokee chocolate 05-55 - 1 generation removed from 96-3 Cherokee Chocolate 01-19 - 2 generations removed from 96-3 Cherokee Purple 01-3 - 1 generation removed from the original seed from JD Green Cherokee Purple 94-108 - 1 generation removed from original seed Cherokee Purple 93-2 - saved from grow out of JD's seed Cherokee Green 97-10 - seed saved from the very first appearing green fruit Aside from really good eating, the comparisons will be worthwhile also - and I will have lots of fresh seed! __________________ Craig

June 5, 2011	#21
Heritage Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,255	very interesting and useful data... thanks Craig!

June 5, 2011	#22
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	I don't think I'd give up yet. I just had a seed pop up that was planted over a month ago and it was a seed from one year ago. The others of the same variety came up 3 weeks ago. I have given up on seed before only to be surprised to see some come up weeks later. With the age of the seed you are trying to germinate there might be the possibility of some really late sprouting. Keep them moist for a couple of more weeks just to be sure.

October 27, 2011	#24
sirtanon Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Phoenix, AZ (zone 9b) Posts: 796	Glad to see this! I have some seed sent to me a number of years ago for some old seeds going back to '95-'97 that I plan to start for Spring 2012 growing. I'm pretty sure these came from Carolyn Male, although I can't be 100% sure as some of my documentation from that time period was lost with a hard drive crash. In any case, they are: Noire de Coseboeuf '95 Mary Robinson '95 Fandango '96 Kimberley '97 I have between 6 and 12 seeds of each and plan on starting at least 4 of each variety, and saving seeds for future use if successful. I was hoping presoaking, blue-stuff, etc.. would help with this, and it gives me some extra confidence seeing your success, Craig. Won't be starting any of these for at least another month, but I will try to update once I have results. __________________ I could sail by on the winds of silence, and maybe they won't notice... but this time I think it would be better if I swim..

October 28, 2011	#25
Mike Maurer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Rio Rancho, New Mexico Posts: 105	Being very new to this I hope I'm not asking a dumb question, but by "blue stuff" are you referring to the commercial fertilizer M. G.? I just stumbled on to this thread and I have found it very informative. I was planning on throwing away seed that was over three years old, but I know now that's not necessary! I was hoping that Scott/earthbox 13 was going to post his results on the 1980's seed. Mike Mike

October 28, 2011	#26
Jeannine Anne Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 1,553	Thank you Craig for a very interesting post, fascinating. XX Jeannine

October 29, 2011	#27
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	"Blue stuff" could be MG or one of the Peters fertilizers. Long ago, it could have been Rapid-Gro, too. The main feature is that it is all synthetic, water soluble, and contains nitrogen (nitrate by preference rather than ammonia-based nitrogen). __________________ -- alias