Silvery Fir Tree

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Iva

I know 'Angora' and 'Velvet Red' are not the same. But what about 'Velvet Red' and 'Angora Super Sweet'? I always thought those two were synonyms for the same variety...

I received seeds from Joe Bratka for Velvet Red in 1996 and first listed it in the SSE YEarbook in 1997. This was not one that Joe bred himself. At that time he was getting a lot of varieties from seed offers in National Gardening and elsewhere.

Then all of a sudden this Angora Super Sweet appears, as offered by Joe and I wasn't the only one who saw that it was probably the same as Velvet Red and the Supersweet one was listed in the SSE public catalog. So I contacted them and told them that it should be Velvet Red and suggested that Joe had changed the name as he did from time to time.

Both have the same angora foliage and small red fruits, but there are those who say that one or the other has slightly fuzzy fruits. The original Angora didn't have fuzzy fruits and I spent some time this AM looking at the seed sources and in my YEarbooks seeing if anyone still describes fuzzy fruits.

The majority of folks say no fuzzy fruits for either Velvet Red OR Angora Super Sweet.

In the 2011 SSE YEarbook quite a few list Velvet Red, but no one lists Angora Super Sweet.

And having grown both I do consider them to be the same. At her site Tania suggests they could be different strains of the same variety, that's possible, but it all comes down to a possible difference of slightly fuzzy fruits and the same as to slightly fuzzy fruits has been said for both by some folks at different times and places.

Somehow I think some folks want something with angora in the name to HAVE fuzzy fruits, but that's just me saying that. When I just pulled out my 2005 Yearbook there are nine folks who list the variety Angora and not one of them mentions fuzzy fruits.

And then, of course there's Fuzzy Bomb, created by Tad Smith, with much larger fruits in the about 12 oz range, PL and angora leaved.No listing for Fuzzy Bomb in the current YEarbook and only Tomatofest appears to lsit it and I don't know what the blurb for it there is so I'll just let tha tone go.

Oh how I wish I was still in touch with Tad, he who sent me the seeds for a triple cross he'd done from which I was able to find what he wanted, which was the variety Tad ( I called it), which was one of the parents of Lucky Cross and Little Lucky and many of the selections that came from that initial cross. And Tad also bred Pale Perfect Purple and Snowstorm and I can't remember what else. Several times he just bred some varieties and sent Craig, who he was also good friends with, and myself F1 seeds of this or that, but when those F1 seeds were gone, that was that. One was a large heart. Craig may remember that one, as to a name, or a description, I don't, but I know I loved it.

Last I knew he headed up the Late Blight potato section at a large firm near Philly, I think Craig would remember the name of that place. Tad has a Ph.D in plant breeding and at one time was doing peanut work in GA and wanted to get out of that project ASAP b'c he was on his knees in the hot GA sun all the time and wanted out.

[loeb]

Is fruit fuzz and leaf fuzz determined by one gene or 2 others? This is recessiv or dominant?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by loeb

Is fruit fuzz and leaf fuzz determined by one gene or 2 others? This is recessiv or dominant?

Leaf fuzz is called angora foliage and as far as I cam remember it's one gene with one allele, so if you sow seeds for an angora variety not all seedlings will have angora foliage. Right now I can't remember if the trait is lost in the homozygous state or the heterozygous state, I just can't remember, but I think it's the latter. I could do more searching but I'm not up to it right now.

As for so called fruit fuzz, I wrote about that in the post above yours:

(Both have the same angora foliage and small red fruits, but there are those who say that one or the other has slightly fuzzy fruits. The original Angora didn't have fuzzy fruits and I spent some time this AM looking at the seed sources and in my YEarbooks seeing if anyone still describes fuzzy fruits.)

The angora gene is a leaf gene and I wouldn't expect it to affect fruit gene traits.

So I'd take those who say fuzzy fruits with caution.

Perhaps they are comparing it to the matte surface fruit named varieties such as Nectarine, Peach Blow Sutton, etc.

No mention of any fruit fuzz at Tania's site:


http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Velvet_Red

And in addition, I checked the descriptions of Velvet red in the 2011 SSE YEarbook and no mention of any fruit fuzz there, and I've grown Velvet red several times in the past and no fruit fuzz ever seen. And you'll see at Tania's page that I was the source for this variety, seeds to me many years ago by Joe Bratka.

Hope that helps.

Edited to add, please check post I think #31 in this thread, the one above yours, b'c I just realized I'D written quite a bit more about angora foliage.

[Iva]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

The angora gene is a leaf gene and I wouldn't expect it to affect fruit gene traits.

So I'd take those who say fuzzy fruits with caution.

Perhaps they are comparing it to the matte surface fruit named varieties such as Nectarine, Peach Blow Sutton, etc.

Carolyn, I got the seeds for Velvet red from someone in a trade, but they were original seeds from SSE.
And they were fuzzy!! The fruits were definitely fuzzy and not matte...

Here are two pics, one is of the unripe fruit and the other of the ripe one:

[OtterJon]

Hey that's a neat looking lil furball!

[loeb]

I checked post before mine I just wondered if this is one gene with different expression [like hm, incomplete dominance - then no fuzz on fruit, complete - fuzz on fruit] or 2 different ones. I got seeds labeled 'velvet red /angora super sweet' and description says that there is a fuzz on a fruit. No fuzz would be nice too. I'm just trying to figure out how this will work on progeny.

[ddsack]

I grew the Velvet Red seeds this summer from someone who had picked them up at an SSE event, and I had the fuzzy foliage, I did not have fuzz on my fruit, though I did have the little gold speckles that I see in the close up in Iva's picture. So loeb is likely right in it being capable of throwing both?

[carolyn137]

OK, I tired to repost and it's the 4th time I've been kicked off so that's it for me. Luckily I'd cut and pasted my response so here's the latest version.

*******

I just lost a long post I'd done b'c its the third time today my Verizon DSL has been lost, so I'll try to remember what I posted.

First, any of you who got your seeds via SSE at any place were getting seeds from Velvet Red that I sent to them way back in the late 90's. For those of you who aren't SSE members, for many years SSE would send the request price for all the new varieties that a listed member had listed so as to put them in the SSE seed bank. I did so and returned the money.

Looking at just the 2011 SSE YEarbook here are some snippets for those who list Velvet Red:

Sweden, Ake says skightly fuzzy fruits but in a prior yearbook just said a grey hairy plant, which I love

TN, blue grey fuzzy foliage, nothing said about fruits

WA, fuzzy silvery grey leaves, nothing said about fruits being fuzzy

WI,, no mention of fuzzy anywhere

.... and it would be about the same if I looked in earlier Yearbooks.

But I just happened on one listing that I want to share and that's for Brad Gates Furry Red Boar, where the only person listing it in the 08 YEarbook I just scooped up from the piles of YEarbooks on the floor and said "fruit slightly fuzzy, looks exactly like like a nectarine" and remembering what I write above:

(Perhaps they are comparing it to the matte surface fruit named varieties such as Nectarine, Peach Blow Sutton, etc.)

In the 2011 YEarbook I find:

Furry White Boar, also a Brad Gates variety which the lister said " white globes with green stripes and peach fuzz", again referring to the hairs I've been talking about and the variety is RL, not angora RL or PL.

THen we've got Furry Yellow Hog, which I think is also a Brad Gates variety with the person just saying fuzzy skin, and I assume also just RL non angora b'c I'm not aware that Brad has ever introduced an angora variety.

And especially if one is doing close up photography I can see how those short hairs that create that matte surface could be interpreted by some as being related to the angora gene.

And as I said above, I don't know of one tomato gene that has specificity for foliage that affects fruits at the same time. Tomato genes are very specific as to which part of a plant they are expressed at.

So I'm of the opinion that the fuzziness some detect may well be that akin to the matte surface varieties and has nothing to do with the angora gene.

I also started to look at Fuzzy Bomb, bred by Tad Smith, yes, the same Tad who sent me the seeds of a 3 way cross and said what he wanted had 1/64 chance of my getting it and I did with the first 12 plants put out, and named it Tad, which led to Lucky Cross and Little Lucky and all those other varieties after I sent the seeds to Craig LeHoullier . And for Fuzzy Bomb I have to go back a few Yearbooks and I want to get out to the LV where soon the second match of the Final ATP tennis event from London will be on.

I do have my priorities.

So that's my opinion about fruit fuzziness; not the angora gene but some gene associated with matte surface varieties and I don't know the genetics of matte surface genes and I don't know that anyone else does either.

So why do some folks actuall say they feel something they call fuzzy on Velvet Red fruits when others don't, and VR does have angora foliage? There are some possibilities as to temp expression, etc/

And then there are those who say fuzzy fruits on varieties that do NOT have angora foliage.

[loeb]

O.k., now it's clear enough for me Thank you.