Black Sea Man or Chernomor?

[bower]

Thanks akgardengirl and afrance30 for finding the thread - very interesting, and unfortunately, as confusing as ever.

I guess for now, I will just assume I have some form of Dvoiurodnyi Brat Black Sea Man/Chernomor, perhaps one day someone will gather the seed of all the different types described and grow them out for a one on one comparison.

akgardengirl, my BSM was PL, quite early, productive and good tasting, in a really poor year even by our short season standards. Not determinate, apparently, but very productive even grown in small pots, and producing more side shoots, flowers and fruit set after being topped. If you ever want to try this Kouzen Chernomora, I'd be happy to share the seed - for me, it's a keeper.

Meanwhile I will see next year, if I can find the right seed to try out the determinate Kouzen!

[akgardengirl]

Ha ha...I forgot that Dice had named it the big long cousin name. One of these seasons I will take you up on the seeds but this year is already filled. Dice has a Dice's Mystery Black/Chernomor cross that is a tasty one and I will be growing that for the 2nd time. Can't wait for all this snow to go away!
Sue B.

[janezee]

Great, Sue,
I'm growing that one out this year, too, and we should compare notes. When are you planting them, and will they be in or outside?

jane

[akgardengirl]

Which one are you growing out Jane? I started some tomatoes already the beginning of Feb. although my usual time is the first part of March. I will plant some more next week. I grow my tomatoes in pots in an unheated portable gh and they usually go out mid May... depending on the weather.
Sue B.

[dice]

A post on Black Sea Man/Chernomor that I made in another thread where
the subject came up:

Black Sea Man should not get that tall, it is a determinate:
http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Black_Sea_Man
http://www.seedsavers.org/Details.as...mNo=19%28OG%29
http://www.totallytomato.com/dp.asp?...Sea+Man+Tomato

There are some variations floating around, though:
http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Chernomor
http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...r_Regular_Leaf

You find vendors listing it as determinate, indeterminate, and one
even called it semi-determinate. I first came across it 5 or 6 years ago
when I was trying to identify Dice's Mystery Black, and all of the vendor
listings and reports from people growing it that I saw then said
"determinate", which is what it has been for me (3-4', depending on what
kind of season it is and where it is in the garden).

What you get when you grow Black Sea Man now (determinate or
indeterminate, fruit size, probably flavor, too) seems to depend
on the seed source.

And a followup in the same thread:

As far as I know, the original determinate Black Sea Man came from
Marina Danilenko in the CIS (the SSE history), and then the indeterminate
one (in a packet called Chernomor, which translates as "Black Sea Man")
followed some years later. They both seem to have been the work of
Eastern European/Russian breeders, and they could both have been
stable OPs before we ever saw them in North America.

(So maybe a cross here with an indeterminate variety, maybe not.)

How Chernomor RL, which has been stable for Tania, got to be RL is
anyone's guess. (I got it from her and have grown it a few year's in a
row, always the same plant and fruit, smaller fruit than the determinate
Black Sea Man.)

The Chernomor RL could have been stabilized in the CIS before
it got here, too. I get the impression that all 3 versions are for sale
in the CIS.

I never paid close attention to whether Black Sea Man
(the determinate) or Chernomor RL are red-black or pink-black,
and I have not grown the indeterminate PL version.

[janezee]

Sue,

I'll be growing 4-6-F3 and perhaps, a couple of F-2. I'm growing 2 beds that are supposed to be late blight tolerant, so my final configuration isn't complete yet. I'll also be growing Bosu, Plum Royal, and a couple of Tom Wagner's, as yet undetermined, since I've yet to receive my seeds.

These will be put out under a cloche in April, with christmas lights if needed. So, I'm starting them as soon as I get back from helping my daughter move next week.
I think I might start my container tomatoes, too.
Why not? It will get me out there working on that hoop house that I keep talking about......
j

[lakelady]

Well, I'm another one with a huge BSM plant here. It is about 6' tall right now, fruits have not ripened, but it appears to be very productive from the amount of flowers on it! I'll have to see what color ripe fruits are as well.

[bower]

Mine should ripen soon - at least, last year was about 45 days from set to ripe.

I've been counting the nodes this year of course, determinate or indeterminate? And it's curious, the three BSM plants I'm growing have done it differently. I kept two seedlings with very short internodes, and one with long internodes, to compare their growth and fruiting habit.

The first 'leafy' one put out a massive triple cluster of flowers ( 3 stalks in a row from the stem) totalling 23 blossoms, apparently as a 'terminal' cluster since the stem did not continue up. Two suckers from below that cluster formed a strong fork: both of them followed the sucker pattern that's typical of indeterminate plants: 5 nodes -cluster - 3 nodes- cluster - 3 nodes - cluster etcetera. Whereas in other plants that have a strong 'fork', if you count the nodes you find that one arm of the fork is really the original stem, and does not make 5 leaves before the next cluster, while the other arm follows the pattern of a 'sucker'.
The second leafy one also had a big first cluster which it set but didn't grow right away. Its growth pattern is unremarkable, strongly forked in the way described as typical - 5-3-3-3... as seen in other indeterminates with medium to large fruit, and setting nice clusters of 6-7 fruit apiece higher up and all over the plant. Lots of fruit on that one.
The third plant, which had long internodes, seems to have some randomness in the number of nodes between clusters - I counted 7 followed by 2 on one branch, instead of the usual 5 -3.
It seems as though both determinate and indeterminate characteristics can be expressed by the individual plant.. maybe BSM has a gene that is flakey.

[The Future]

My Black Sea Man is def determinate, short, big fruit that are darker than the ones in bower's original post. My plants had terminal buds and the plant didn't get more than 3ft tall. Nice to see large fruit on such a small plant. bsm is in my top 3 tomatoes.

[bower]

Originally Posted by The Future

My Black Sea Man is def determinate, short, big fruit that are darker than the ones in bower's original post. My plants had terminal buds and the plant didn't get more than 3ft tall. Nice to see large fruit on such a small plant. bsm is in my top 3 tomatoes.

The Future,
Maybe we should swap seeds in the fall. That way we can do a side by side comparison of the two different "Black Sea Man". If the determinate is as good as mine, I'll be very impressed! I do indeed have blushing fruit on them now, and eagerly awaiting the first slice.

[carolyn137]

PLease see post #10 where I explained that I trialed both Black Sea Man and Southern Nights, both Det for me, from seeds sent to SSE by Marie Danilenko who at that time was SSE's contact in Moscow.

Don't know if that helps, or not, since some seem to be concerned about translation problems, but as to plant habit, both were determinate.

[The Future]

Originally Posted by bower

The Future,
Maybe we should swap seeds in the fall. That way we can do a side by side comparison of the two different "Black Sea Man". If the determinate is as good as mine, I'll be very impressed! I do indeed have blushing fruit on them now, and eagerly awaiting the first slice.

Drop me a line in the fall.