WV '63 status OP or heirloom?

[ddsack]

I personally believe that heirloom should be reserved for tomatoes know to be passed down within a family, but the term is being applied to "old" or "old like" open pollinated tomatoes. I'd prefer the term classic and or antique to refer to varieties that are just old.

I agree pretty much with what Doug said above.

To me, an heirloom was an unintentionally created tomato passed down through a family that saved seeds from the best tasting fruits that represented their variety. By unintentionally created, I mean that no one artificially cross pollinated their flowers to create a new hybrid, though the same thing might have happened in their garden through bee crosses. So my prerequisite to the heirloom designation means the parent lines are a mystery or at least undocumented.

By the time you get plant science and technology into it, anyone can theoretically reproduce any cross if they know the parent lines, so I don't feel comfortable calling any recently created tomatoes heirlooms, no matter how good they taste or beautifully odd they look. Call them OP's or call them artisan tomatoes. They are not heirlooms in my book, no more than university or seed company created OP's can be called heirlooms.

[barkeater]

Let alone how you define an heirloom, what about heritage tomatoes? The past couple years I've seen that term used more and more. I've also seen tomatoes referred to as vintage.

Fact is, there is no official heirloom certification authority like there is for the term organic, and likely never will be. So any "definition" proposed for these terms is only definite for the person proposing it, and no one else. Although I've given the heirloom question a lot of thought in the past, I've come to realize continuing to do so is just an exercise in futility.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by barkeater

Let alone how you define an heirloom, what about heritage tomatoes? The past couple years I've seen that term used more and more. I've also seen tomatoes referred to as vintage.

Fact is, there is no official heirloom certification authority like there is for the term organic, and likely never will be. So any "definition" proposed for these terms is only definite for the person proposing it, and no one else. Although I've given the heirloom question a lot of thought in the past, I've come to realize continuing to do so is just an exercise in futility.

Agreed that whatever words are used as a "definition", it applies only to the person who accepts any particular definition.

But do not agree that the term "organic" refers to a specific certification authority.

The Feds have four different levels of "organicness" if you will, there are places that will certify you as your crops being organic that are in it for the money, not the guidelines that they use, and here in the East when MOGFA ( Maine organic one) was developed it was so good that it serves as the model for other GOOD agencies across the country. NOFA is also here in the East and they're good as well.

I've been helping out a local person get started with, pardon the expression, heirloom tomatoes, and he got some kind of organic certification that even he can't explain but from what he says, I don't consider it organic at any level.

Labelling plants and fruits as organic usually means that the seller can charge a higher price for that, and you see that in your local grocery stores as well.

And in the past 5- 10 years organic has become for many folks a kind of mantra, and now I'l talking about the general populace.

Carolyn

[barkeater]

Carolyn,

Don't get me started on the term "organic".

I was one of the original founding members of NOFA-NJ way, way back around 1987 or so, and dropped out after only a year or so due to the head-in-the-sand, look-the-other way approach about certain chemicals and practices allowed, while not permitting safe natural products and practices - among numerous other inconsistencies. So I left and went my own way and never regretted it.

[WVTomatoMan]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Even when some of us disagreed with you?

Carolyn

Carolyn,

Since I didn't actually express my opinion there's nothing to disagree to. The original question was just as it was posed to me. So, I just asked questions and played devil's advocate. Of course in public I have to be non partial and present the different positions and let the people decide for themselves. I might even cite this thread just to illustrate how divided the tomato community is on the heirloom definition and the status of WV '63.

I may be young enough to play devil's advocate, but I'm too old to put a lot of stock in what labels or names people put to things. I tend to grow what I grow based on merit or some other reason or determining factor.

Randy

[WVTomatoMan]

Originally Posted by barkeater

...Fact is, there is no official heirloom certification authority like there is for the term organic, and likely never will be...

When I first read that I assumed that you were referring to the $5000 rule where you have to get certified by a USDA accredited agent. In that case to me your statement makes sense in that there is no agency that officially certifies a tomato as being an heirloom. I've discussed this with a local farmer and basically there was so much ambiguity and red tape that he decided against it even though his practices were well within the guidelines for the variouos "levels". Well as close as he could tell anyhow.

Randy

p.s. BTW, this is based on the 1990 (?) regulations, if there are newer ones in affect please disregard my comments.