Mr. Darwin, what do you think?

dcarch · November 16, 2006

This is my first year in growing heirloom varieties. I have never really learned to use any disease spray other than some aphid spray. With the bad weather and crowded growing conditions, near the end of the season, basically everything died from various fungal and blight infections.

Everything but one!

I planted a whole variety of heirlooms and hybrids. There is one which almost completely wilted has come back strong and it is a Brandywine! It is sending out new growth and blossoms all over again.

Ironic with all the complains about BW being fussy and difficult.

Do I have somehow end up with a disease resistant mutation of BW by natural selection/evolution?

Unfortunately there are many green ones on the vines which I don’t think will make it thru Z6 approaching winter to get ripe. In any case, because I have been using an electric vibrator to pollinate, I don’t think the seeds would be true BWs.

dcarch

:wink:

[/b]

feldon30 · November 16, 2006

I don't know what to say except have you got your bottles of Daconil/Ortho Garden Disease Control/chlorothanonil and a 1 gallon sprayer ready? You don't KNOW how many times it took me to learn how to spell chloro...blah!

**carolyn137** · November 16, 2006

(Do I have somehow end up with a disease resistant mutation of BW by natural selection/evolution?)

Ummm, err, what was your diagnosis of the original disease that led to you almost losing it and then it resurrected itself?

The only symptom you gave was wilting and wilting can be due to lots of things, but not usually the foliage diseases, and environmental reasons can also play a role.

Just a side note but several years ago I switched from referring to disease resistance to disease tolerance when the tomato industry did that.

The reason is that NO variety, hybrid or OP is resistant to ANY disease. Tolerance more accurately describes it.

What happend was that several large commercial farmers sued the seed producers who had said variety X or Y or Z was RESISTANT to this or that disease, and sure enough the plants they planted DID come down with those diseases, so the word tolerance I feel is a much better word.

feldon30 · November 16, 2006

Carolyn,

You've been saying for quite a while that "there are no varieties useful to the home gardener that have any disease tolerance or resistance to foliage diseases".

Maybe that could be amended to say bacterial and fungal caused diseases, since there are now a few tomato varieties which are tolerant to Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus?

It's still not great news. I'd like to see something tasty that's resistant to Early Blight or Anthracnose but I think that won't be possible without GMO which I refuse to grow.

Tomstrees · November 16, 2006

I've been thinking about something
like this post for a while now ...
It is kind-of in relation to building disease tolerance ...

I was reading about Alex ...
Alexander Livingston ... and from what I was reading he said he found a yellow tomato at a county fair ...
He then "improved" it and later released
it as Golden Queen ...
Now, did he breed it with other yellow tomatoes to make it better ?

Or did he grow it out and select only the best shaped fruit with the best coloring to continue that line?

I mean ... if he did not cross it with somehting else aren't we doing the exact same thing ?
Saving seeds from fruits ; from the strongest most disease tolerant plants, best tasting & looking fruits of the bunch and planting them again and repeating the process to further make it better all around ?

Maybe is it possible that growing saved seed from a variety will not have the extact same genes as it did before ever again (you can't go backwards right) ???

I mean ... I'm thinking we are the human version of evolution for some of these tomatoes ...

Are we ultimately changing original varieties through selection ?

~ Tom

ps.
hope I don't seem too spaced out here !!!

Tomstrees · November 16, 2006

ps. Dcarch -

Is that your garden now ???!!
Does the garden last longer
because its so close to the
concrete on the side of the house therefore
retaining heat to keep your season going ???
Or is it just not cold up by you yet ?

Tom

dcarch · November 16, 2006

Terminological exactitude and conceptual conciseness are consistent with scientific pursuits. Carolyn, I applaud you on your valuable contribution to knowledge, and above all, your impeccable attitude in disseminating the same.

I agree that “disease tolerance” is correct because they were infected with the ailment first then tolerated it.

I suspect my tomato plants were infected with multiple diseases: / blights / fungus / germs / viruses ------- .
BTW: Do tomatoes become hypochondriacs?

It happened very fast, about one week’s time, all gone.

Tom said:
“Saving seeds from fruits ; from the strongest most disease tolerant plants, best tasting & looking fruits of the bunch and planting them again and repeating the process to further make it better all around ?”

I see very little effort amongst hobbyist growers focus on “disease tolerance”. They all concentrate on taste, productivity and color, and then spray the h e l l on them.

Tom said:
“I mean ... I'm thinking we are the human version of evolution for some of these tomatoes ...”

A few days ago I heard in a TV report that the medical experts are alarmed and puzzled by the recent dramatic rise in premature births. Without getting into ethics, politics, morals and religion, (Please, Forum rules!) I wonder if this has anything to do with the fact that we keep on having more and more premature babies surviving.

If indeed I have the seeds of a disease tolerant Brandywine, I am going to ask for $20.00 per seed, (plus shipping & handling)

dcarch

**carolyn137** · November 16, 2006

(Maybe that could be amended to say bacterial and fungal caused diseases, since there are now a few tomato varieties which are tolerant to Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus?

It's still not great news. I'd like to see something tasty that's resistant to Early Blight or Anthracnose but I think that won't be possible without GMO which I refuse to grow. )

Yes, I could add viruses as in TMV well as the TSWD you mentioned.

TMV is no longer a problem for the home gardener but remains a problem for large commercial greenhouse operations as transmitted manually.

Yes Feldon, BHN has been the leader in developing varieties tolerant to TSWD but it's still only tolerance and those who have grown those several BHN varieties have said so, as well as saying that taste is not all that great.

There are three varieties that have been released that have some degree of tolerance to Early Blight ( A. solani), but they are of no use to the home gardener b'c all it means is that sprayings for the commercial farmer can be about 7-8 days rather than about 5 or so days, but for them it's a huge money saving issue.

dcarch · November 16, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tomstrees

ps. Dcarch -

Is that your garden now ???!!
Does the garden last longer
because its so close to the
concrete on the side of the house therefore
retaining heat to keep your season going ???
-------- Tom

Nothing to do with the wall. I sing to them twice everyday.

Serious. The thermometer has not recorded below 37 degrees yet. Could be that 20" stone wall.

dcarch

jk · November 17, 2006

Dcarch: I had a couple of thoughts that might be germane, or maybe not. (1) If the plant had a lot of disease tolerance, would it have wilted so much in the first place? (2) Maybe the plant was just tolerant enough or maybe environmental factors allowed it to survive a warm, humid period when there was lots of fungus and bacteria in the air until cooler weather came along.

dcarch · November 17, 2006

Quote:

Originally Posted by jk

Dcarch: I had a couple of thoughts that might be germane, or maybe not. -------.

Very germane. If we are talking about tomato germs mainly.

That fact is, of all the varieties I have planted under the same conditions, and this is the only one surviving, there must be a reason, whatever it is.

Is it possible that some plants can actually develop immunity after they have been infected?

dcarch

Tomstrees · November 17, 2006

Dcarch -

I have had a plant die of
foliar disease ... me chop the
top - leave the roots - and it grow
later on in the summer ...
I just thought environmental conditions changed
for it to re-grow ~

Tom

November 16, 2006	#1
dcarch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: NY Posts: 2,618	Mr. Darwin, what do you think? This is my first year in growing heirloom varieties. I have never really learned to use any disease spray other than some aphid spray. With the bad weather and crowded growing conditions, near the end of the season, basically everything died from various fungal and blight infections. Everything but one! I planted a whole variety of heirlooms and hybrids. There is one which almost completely wilted has come back strong and it is a Brandywine! It is sending out new growth and blossoms all over again. Ironic with all the complains about BW being fussy and difficult. Do I have somehow end up with a disease resistant mutation of BW by natural selection/evolution? Unfortunately there are many green ones on the vines which I don’t think will make it thru Z6 approaching winter to get ripe. In any case, because I have been using an electric vibrator to pollinate, I don’t think the seeds would be true BWs. dcarch :wink: [/b] __________________ tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato tomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomatomato matomato

November 16, 2006	#2
feldon30 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 5,346	I don't know what to say except have you got your bottles of Daconil/Ortho Garden Disease Control/chlorothanonil and a 1 gallon sprayer ready? You don't KNOW how many times it took me to learn how to spell chloro...blah! __________________ [SIZE="3"]I've relaunched my gardening website -- [B]TheUnconventionalTomato.com[/B][/SIZE] * [I][SIZE="1"]*I'm not allowed to post weblinks so you'll have to copy-paste it manually.[/SIZE][/I]

November 16, 2006	#3
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	(Do I have somehow end up with a disease resistant mutation of BW by natural selection/evolution?) Ummm, err, what was your diagnosis of the original disease that led to you almost losing it and then it resurrected itself? The only symptom you gave was wilting and wilting can be due to lots of things, but not usually the foliage diseases, and environmental reasons can also play a role. Just a side note but several years ago I switched from referring to disease resistance to disease tolerance when the tomato industry did that. The reason is that NO variety, hybrid or OP is resistant to ANY disease. Tolerance more accurately describes it. What happend was that several large commercial farmers sued the seed producers who had said variety X or Y or Z was RESISTANT to this or that disease, and sure enough the plants they planted DID come down with those diseases, so the word tolerance I feel is a much better word. __________________ Carolyn

November 16, 2006	#4
feldon30 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 5,346	Carolyn, You've been saying for quite a while that "there are no varieties useful to the home gardener that have any disease tolerance or resistance to foliage diseases". Maybe that could be amended to say bacterial and fungal caused diseases, since there are now a few tomato varieties which are tolerant to Tomato Spotted Wilt Virus? It's still not great news. I'd like to see something tasty that's resistant to Early Blight or Anthracnose but I think that won't be possible without GMO which I refuse to grow. __________________ [SIZE="3"]I've relaunched my gardening website -- [B]TheUnconventionalTomato.com[/B][/SIZE] * [I][SIZE="1"]*I'm not allowed to post weblinks so you'll have to copy-paste it manually.[/SIZE][/I]

November 16, 2006	#5
Tomstrees Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NJ Bayshore Posts: 3,848	I've been thinking about something like this post for a while now ... It is kind-of in relation to building disease tolerance ... I was reading about Alex ... Alexander Livingston ... and from what I was reading he said he found a yellow tomato at a county fair ... He then "improved" it and later released it as Golden Queen ... Now, did he breed it with other yellow tomatoes to make it better ? Or did he grow it out and select only the best shaped fruit with the best coloring to continue that line? I mean ... if he did not cross it with somehting else aren't we doing the exact same thing ? Saving seeds from fruits ; from the strongest most disease tolerant plants, best tasting & looking fruits of the bunch and planting them again and repeating the process to further make it better all around ? Maybe is it possible that growing saved seed from a variety will not have the extact same genes as it did before ever again (you can't go backwards right) ??? I mean ... I'm thinking we are the human version of evolution for some of these tomatoes ... Are we ultimately changing original varieties through selection ? ~ Tom ps. hope I don't seem too spaced out here !!! __________________ My green thumb came only as a result of the mistakes I made while learning to see things from the plant's point of view. ~ H. Fred Ale

November 17, 2006	#10
jk Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Hawaii Posts: 5	Dcarch: I had a couple of thoughts that might be germane, or maybe not. (1) If the plant had a lot of disease tolerance, would it have wilted so much in the first place? (2) Maybe the plant was just tolerant enough or maybe environmental factors allowed it to survive a warm, humid period when there was lots of fungus and bacteria in the air until cooler weather came along.