the great brandywine sudduth production controversy

[michael johnson]

I suppose one can create a situation where a certain plant does produce strong long roots in that particular instance, especialy if its a bit on the dry side and good soil,

But its more the norm for Brandywine to have not such a strong rooting system for most people growing it,

I suppose one could actualy set aside a special bed to grow just Brandywines on, such as well drained rich soil with plenty of natural humus in the soil, plenty of leaf mold, and maybe a good skep of well rotted manure etc, making absolutly sure it had plenty of root forming and feeding minerals in the soil.

Years and years ago back in 1946 we used to have a variety in england called (Radio Gold ) named after a brand of Razor blade-which incidentaly was like shaving with left over blades in the bathroom your girlfriend had use to do her legs with - scratchy and blunt,
But- this tomato was made out of a cross with a well known (Moneymaker) strain at the time-as there were several, and another strong rooting type -I cant remember the name ?,

This tomato went on to become a top producer for most of the Uk for salad size tomatoes and was very popular,

at one stage I was lucky enough to discover an old market garden nursery near to where I lived- who had saved the strain of Radio Gold-year after year through to mid seventies, I obtained some seed along with the history and grew it for several years, then unfortunatly I moved overseas to live for a while and lost the strain in the stuff I threw out before moving.

Upon my return to the UK in the late seventies, I tried to find the same nursery and market garden centre again, but it had been closed down and the elderly people that used to work it had passed away, so the strain was gone forever- what a shame, as it was an absolute cracker of a tomato

[carolyn137]

(While I agree that Brandywine is a wonderful tomato, I'm afraid there is no proof that Brandywine Sudduth dates circa 1885 or that Red Brandywine was grown by the Amish in the 19th Century. )


PV, when Tom Hauch got Red Brandywine out of the SSE Yearbook he grew it, he liked it, and he sent seeds to Steve Miller at the Landis Museum b'c their focus is PA heirlooms.

It was Steve Miller who contacted the original person who had listed RB and received back the info that RB was indeed grown by the Amish and did date back to about 1885, or so.

As for the Sudduth strain of Brandywine, I don't know that a specific date of 1885 is all that useful, but when Doris Sudduth Hill gave the seeds to Ben Quisenberry she told him, at that time, and I don't remember the year when she gave him the seeds, that the variety had been grown by the Sudduth family for about 100 years, which does take it back to late 19th century.

Early on in my tomato career I grew Brandywine and didn't think that much of it, and continued to request and receive seeds for the various so called strains that were then listed in the SSE Yearbooks, and there were quite a few different ones.

I considered myself at that time to be the unofficial Prez of the Anti-Brandywine Association of America. And that b'c so many were singing the praises of Brandywine.

It wasn't until Craig sent me the Suddth/Quisenberry strain that I really for the first time could see a major difference in fruit set and lack of convoluted fruits and I started to believe, re the taste and all.

I consider the taste of Brandywine to be unique, but I also think there are other varieties that have a unique taste, and Prue is a good example. I'm talking about fruits that if I ate them blindfolded I could ID the variety.

So is Brandywine my one fave variety? No, not at all, but when she's good, she's very very good.

[travis]

Carolyn,

With regard to my comment that there is no proof that Red Brandywine was grown by the Amish in the 19th Century, you offer this:

"It was Steve Miller who contacted the original person who had listed RB and received back the info that RB was indeed grown by the Amish and did date back to about 1885, or so."

In Craig LeHoullier's "History of Brandywine" one reads that Red Brandywine was first listed in SSE Yearbook in 1988 "by Steve Miller, who got the variety from Tom Hauch of Heirloom Seeds. (In his seed catalog, Tom states that this tomato originated with Chester County, Pennsylvania farmers in 1885)." That's the only documentation available to me and it seems rather sketchy being based on one catalog blurb.

If there is additional historical documentation, it would be very valuable in determining the facts about Red Brandywine's pedigree. Otherwise, hearsay is hearsay and I guess in the absense of real live historical documentation, I remain unconvinced that 19th Century Amish farmers grew what we know today as Red Brandywine. Maybe they did ... but I find it rather unsupportable mythology rather than fact.

With regard to Sudduth dating to circa 1885, you offer this: "As for the Sudduth strain of Brandywine, I don't know that a specific date of 1885 is all that useful, but when Doris Sudduth Hill gave the seeds to Ben Quisenberry she told him, at that time, and I don't remember the year when she gave him the seeds, that the variety had been grown by the Sudduth family for about 100 years, which does take it back to late 19th century."

Carolyn, I totally agree with you, from the information available to me from Craig LeHoullier's "History of Brandywine," and without doubting Ms. Hill's words to Mr. Quisenberry, that her tomato may date back to the 19th Century. But please keep in mind that the statement I originally was reacting to is that the "Sudduth" Brandywine dates back to 1885 and that Red Brandywine dates back to 19th Century Amish Farmers ... not the other way around.

Indeed, if Ms. Hill told Mr. Quisenberry prior to 1985 that her tomato had been grown in her family for 100 years, that would take it back to 1885. However, I was taking the information given in Craig LeHoullier's "History of Brandywine" as the best available information on the subject. And that information, as copied directly from the Victory Seed Web site is ...

"This is fairly certain, Brandywine is a tomato that found its way into the Seed Savers Exchange collection in 1982. It got there via an elderly (now deceased) Ohio gardener named Ben Quisenberry, who received the variety from a woman named Dorris Sudduth Hill. She stated that they had been in her family for over 80 years. I do not know where the Dorris came from – hence, where the tomato originated ..."

Now of course we need to know when Ms. Hill said to Mr. Quisenberry "this tomato was in my family for over 80 years" so that we can count back from that date.

If one clicks here: http://liseed.org/tomseed.html one will read Ken Ettlinger's account of receiving Brandywine seeds from Mr. Quisenberry back in the late 1970s or early 1980s ... Ken is not exactly specific on the date he received the seeds.

However, Mr. LeHoullier documents the appearance of Brandywine in the 1982 SSE Yearbook with three listings and says that there were no listings for Brandywine 1975 - 1981.

Mr. LeHoullier "History of Brandywine" also offers this information:

"I received the variety from Roger Wentling of Pennsylvania in 1986. He in turn received the variety from Ken Ettlinger of the Long Island Seed and Plant company. Ken received it from Ben Quisenberry, thus the JSS (Johnny's Selected Seed) strain is the Quisenberry/Sudduth strain."

So, that's why I'm assuming that the Sudduth Brandywine may date back to 1895 - 1900 based on hearsay, but that there is no documented history of it dating back to 1885. And believe me please when I say ... I'm not nitpickin' over a decade ... I'm just askin' for documentation rather than hearsay and mythology.

Additionally, as has been discussed here and at other forums, ad nauseum, tomatoes are subject to some cross pollination, absent isolation or baggin' blossoms, and mutations ... whatever else ... over a period of three human generations and a hundred tomato generations.

So, it would appear very likely that a tomato cultivar grown in 1980 from seeds saved and handed down over 80 years might exhibit differences, however slight or major, to its ancestor cultivar circa 1900. My gosh, we hear every growing season of some abberations of this, that, or another variety changing leaf shapes, colors, expressing uncharacteristic characteristics ... blah, blah, blah.

So all in all, and with all due respect to your and Mr. LeHoullier's dedicated efforts and remarkable contributions to the subject, it remains the case that we have only a modest amount of information available about the true origins of Brandywine. And what is available being rather sketchy and not what a historian would call anything more than anecdotal, I remain grateful and respectful of your valuable contributions to all things tomato, but also remain of the opinion I stated in the post above that ...

"... Brandywine is a wonderful tomato (but) I'm afraid there is no proof that Brandywine Sudduth dates circa 1885 or that Red Brandywine was grown by the Amish in the 19th Century."

PV

[carolyn137]

PV, Craig is wrong about the Red Brandywine.

I've had extensive talks with Tom Hauch and it was he who got it out of the SSE Yearbook, and I don't kow how it was listed, probably, maybe, RB??

Tom couldn't remember when I asked him.

And it WAS Tom who sent the seeds to Steve Miller.

If Steve Miller then listed it in the Yearbook, fine and good, since I have all the SSE Yearbooks I could check, but don't see the need to.

So that's the picture with RB and it WAS Steve, said Tom, and not he, Tom, who contacted the original lister and got the info re Amish and year and Chester Co and no doubt shared that with Tom, from whom he got the seeds for what we know as RB.

And I have no reason to doubt what Tom has shared with me. And to the extent that I've shared that with Craig, well, I don't know that either, but have said the same thing about RB for many years, as to history.

I did not see the parts Craig wrote about the standard so called family heirlooms of Brandywine, Yellow B and Red B before he sent it to Mike at V seeds, but I did contribute material to that article re the other ones such as OTV, Marizol Bratka ( Purple Brandywine) and Black Brandywine.

[greggf]

I love it when people say, "I grow tomatoes because of their wonderful stories."

Unless there's documentation, which there never is, the "story" for any old tomato is anecdotal, fanciful, hearsay, guesswork. The word of somebody who can't remember where they left their car keys or what they had for dinner last night. Pure fiction. Make-believe.

It's a method of adding some homespun charm to our otherwise over-rationalized age.

But it's pure B.S. The same as any seed catalog copy, whether from 1890 or 1930 or 2006.

But it sure is fun, isn't it? 8)

=gregg=

[Tormato]

Papa Vic,

That Brandywine produced 30 tomatoes/ 25 lbs. It had well amended soil. I put another Brandywine in unamended soil, watered and fertilized well, and only produced 6 fruit.

Michael, all of my tomatoes are now grown in special beds that have well drained rich soil with plenty of natural humus and leaf mold.

Gary

[michael johnson]

Greggf, I bet if you put some of (that pure B.S. ) that you mention, on your tomato beds-especialy round the Brandywines, you would get a bumper crop of fine tomatoes. :wink:

[greggf]

I have sheep, not bulls, so I use S.S. !

=gregg=

[Grub]

U-Pooh.

[michael johnson]

Greggf, Very funny Actualy S.S., is very very good for tomatoes, my father used to swear by it, he used to gather it by hand in bags, and then put it in big tubs of water, after a few days he used to feed his tomato plants with it, and he used to have some of the best tomatoes (and the tastiest) in the area.

[travis]

Michael,

Did your daddy wash his hands after gatherin' up that U-poop? If not, that may explain the distinct flavor imparted to his handpicked tomatoes.

PV

[Tomstrees]

My suggestion to this "mystery" is to
go with "Pink Potato Top" and call it a day ~

IT'S PINK, IT'S PL, IT'S TOLERANT, IT'S PRODUCTIVE,

& ITS TASTE ROCKS THE CASBAH !!!

Just grow it and forget about Brandywine ...
that no good, lousy production, finicky, piece of .. .. . . ..

~

[michael johnson]

Pappa Vic, - "No"- the Rotter nearly always made me do it for him for a bit of pocket money when I was a kid, if he did it-he usualy wore rubber gloves

But all joking aside- the flavour was definatly better on most of his tomatoes- purely organic feed all the time, I am sure he had some secret formula he never told me about, he had a big shed that was absolutly chocked full of all sorts of little bags of this and that, even things like soot from the fireplace. :wink: