Advantage of thick stalks on seedlings.

Doug9345 · February 28, 2014

There are a couple of threads in progress that are asking how to grow transplants with thick stalks. Let's back up one step. If you aren't selling them what is the advantage to having thick stalks? Has there been any controlled studies that show that you get earlier production of more tomatoes or whatever? My experience has been whether I planted 2" plants or ten inch plants they all looked about the same in garden in a matter of a couple of weeks.

jmsieglaff · February 28, 2014

It's always been my understanding a thick stem and stocky plant will withstand wind after transplanting better--less plant movement, less chances of stem breakage, and allows roots to grow and anchor into soil better because the plant isn't getting whipped around as much. A taller, thin stemmed plant will catch more wind and being thinner is more prone to damage. If you plant a tall thin stemmed plant deep or even lay part of the stem horizontally in the ground there probably isn't a big difference. My seedlings are pretty stocky when I plant them because I grow them relatively cool. I don't know of any difference in terms of production/earliness.

spacetogrow · March 1, 2014

I'll agree with jmsieglaff. In addition, I find it much harder to haul tall skinny plants to the community garden and get them transplanted without damaging them.

Douglas14 · March 1, 2014

A thicker stem may prevent cutworm damage. Though I protect my newly planted out tomatoes from cutworms anyway.

bughunter99 · March 1, 2014

Interesting question. All the books say it but where's the supporting information?

The winds where I live boarder on ridiculous at times, thin and wispy plants simply don't survive transplanting so fat and stocky to start does better for me.

I haven't seen a formal study but given that the stems and roots are the transplant mechanisms for the nutrients and water, intuitively it seems that a plant with thick stems and roots will be able to support more growth and production sooner.

I'll be interested to hear what the experts say.

Stacy

Doug9345 · March 1, 2014

That's why I asked the question. Logic also says that an older igger plant should have a head start on a younger smaller plant, but it often doesn't work that way.

bughunter99 · March 1, 2014

Definitely not if you happen to stunt the older bigger guy in the effort to make them older and bigger! Ask me how I know!

I did it one year with my cold frame. The tomatoes continued to look healthy but they all but shut down growth after a long weekend of getting hit with temperatures that were not to their liking. It took them all summer to catch up. I called them my pouters.

Stacy

Anthony_Toronto · March 1, 2014

Older and bigger are what I try to achieve but only to some degree...ideally I'd be able to plant 6-inch seedlings 5 or 6 weeks earlier but I can't. In my garden if the seedlings are 3 feet tall and 8 weeks old they do better than smaller younger ones over the lifetime of the garden. If the smaller ones catch up quickly to the larger ones, both on size and production, I take that as a pretty obvious sign that whatever was done to get those older bigger plants older and bigger also compromised growth (or maybe certain pivotal stages of growth) at the same time.

For example....every year I (a) start my seedlings early, 8 or 9 weeks to plant out, (b) have to re-start some seeds after a week or two, leaving some seedlings a little behind, (c) buy some smaller seedlings from garden centres a few weeks before plant out, and (d) buy 2 or 3 bigger plants from garden centres, i.e. 15-18 inches, thick stalks, 8-inch or so pot, well developed. All are planted at the same time. The (a) plants ALWAYS do the best. The (b) and (c) plants have much better/nicer/more natural full growth than the (a) plants, but even if they get as big as the (a) plants they never produce as much fruit before the season is over. The (d) plants almost exclusively do the worst. Biggest problem with the (a) plants is that they take up too much room, are very difficult to harden, have tops that are much more than the roots can handle, and do not handle wind or extensive sun very well for the first week to 10 days...but all else being equal and with a bit of luck and babysitting they always outproduce (b), (c), and (d)...or (e) which are volunteers, from which I rarely see a tomato.

As for thicker stem I was wondering the same thing, especially after reading discussions on 'supercropping' a few years back...those plants always looked great and had thick stems, but left me wondering whether the thickness was merely from additional scar tissue from the damage done in the supercropping process, and not from any additional vascularity in the stems.

Worth1 · March 1, 2014

You can cut more lumber from a thicker plant------------.
Oops I thought I was on the logging forum sorry.

Worth

drew51 · March 1, 2014

Well since tomatoes have the ability to produce root hairs from the stem, very much unlike most plants, you can bury stems a bit if thin. I was looking at the VHO lamps 7,200 lumens - 95 watts each. and a VHO fixture, doubt I would have any thin stalks with a 4 bulb fixture with those lamps, an impressive beast! I guess a fan would be a good idea too, not only to thicken stems, but keep the area dry.

I would like to overwinter some peppers and was looking for some good lights. 8 lamps seems like overkill besides expensive! 4 lamp seems reasonable and should do the job. 4 foot flourescents.

February 28, 2014	#1
Doug9345 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Durhamville,NY Posts: 2,706	Advantage of thick stalks on seedlings. There are a couple of threads in progress that are asking how to grow transplants with thick stalks. Let's back up one step. If you aren't selling them what is the advantage to having thick stalks? Has there been any controlled studies that show that you get earlier production of more tomatoes or whatever? My experience has been whether I planted 2" plants or ten inch plants they all looked about the same in garden in a matter of a couple of weeks.

February 28, 2014	#2
jmsieglaff Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Southern WI Posts: 2,742	It's always been my understanding a thick stem and stocky plant will withstand wind after transplanting better--less plant movement, less chances of stem breakage, and allows roots to grow and anchor into soil better because the plant isn't getting whipped around as much. A taller, thin stemmed plant will catch more wind and being thinner is more prone to damage. If you plant a tall thin stemmed plant deep or even lay part of the stem horizontally in the ground there probably isn't a big difference. My seedlings are pretty stocky when I plant them because I grow them relatively cool. I don't know of any difference in terms of production/earliness.

March 1, 2014	#3
spacetogrow Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: MN zone 4 Posts: 359	I'll agree with jmsieglaff. In addition, I find it much harder to haul tall skinny plants to the community garden and get them transplanted without damaging them.

March 1, 2014	#4
Douglas14 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts: 602	A thicker stem may prevent cutworm damage. Though I protect my newly planted out tomatoes from cutworms anyway.

March 1, 2014	#5
bughunter99 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: zone 5 Posts: 821	Interesting question. All the books say it but where's the supporting information? The winds where I live boarder on ridiculous at times, thin and wispy plants simply don't survive transplanting so fat and stocky to start does better for me. I haven't seen a formal study but given that the stems and roots are the transplant mechanisms for the nutrients and water, intuitively it seems that a plant with thick stems and roots will be able to support more growth and production sooner. I'll be interested to hear what the experts say. Stacy

March 1, 2014	#8
Anthony_Toronto Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Toronto Posts: 413	Older and bigger are what I try to achieve but only to some degree...ideally I'd be able to plant 6-inch seedlings 5 or 6 weeks earlier but I can't. In my garden if the seedlings are 3 feet tall and 8 weeks old they do better than smaller younger ones over the lifetime of the garden. If the smaller ones catch up quickly to the larger ones, both on size and production, I take that as a pretty obvious sign that whatever was done to get those older bigger plants older and bigger also compromised growth (or maybe certain pivotal stages of growth) at the same time. For example....every year I (a) start my seedlings early, 8 or 9 weeks to plant out, (b) have to re-start some seeds after a week or two, leaving some seedlings a little behind, (c) buy some smaller seedlings from garden centres a few weeks before plant out, and (d) buy 2 or 3 bigger plants from garden centres, i.e. 15-18 inches, thick stalks, 8-inch or so pot, well developed. All are planted at the same time. The (a) plants ALWAYS do the best. The (b) and (c) plants have much better/nicer/more natural full growth than the (a) plants, but even if they get as big as the (a) plants they never produce as much fruit before the season is over. The (d) plants almost exclusively do the worst. Biggest problem with the (a) plants is that they take up too much room, are very difficult to harden, have tops that are much more than the roots can handle, and do not handle wind or extensive sun very well for the first week to 10 days...but all else being equal and with a bit of luck and babysitting they always outproduce (b), (c), and (d)...or (e) which are volunteers, from which I rarely see a tomato. As for thicker stem I was wondering the same thing, especially after reading discussions on 'supercropping' a few years back...those plants always looked great and had thick stems, but left me wondering whether the thickness was merely from additional scar tissue from the damage done in the supercropping process, and not from any additional vascularity in the stems.

March 1, 2014	#9
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	You can cut more lumber from a thicker plant------------. Oops I thought I was on the logging forum sorry. Worth

March 1, 2014	#10
drew51 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Sterling Heights, MI Zone 6a/5b Posts: 1,302	Well since tomatoes have the ability to produce root hairs from the stem, very much unlike most plants, you can bury stems a bit if thin. I was looking at the VHO lamps 7,200 lumens - 95 watts each. and a VHO fixture, doubt I would have any thin stalks with a 4 bulb fixture with those lamps, an impressive beast! I guess a fan would be a good idea too, not only to thicken stems, but keep the area dry. I would like to overwinter some peppers and was looking for some good lights. 8 lamps seems like overkill besides expensive! 4 lamp seems reasonable and should do the job. 4 foot flourescents.