Looking for advice on adjusting high soil ph

frankbenjones · February 25, 2014

I'm trying to improve my raised beds and have had some of them tested. Below are the results from multiple tests for Bed 2 & Bed 10 ( 2 different companys). Our water (hard) pH runs around 8.2 according to the local water utility. All the beds tested for sodium/salts seem to be high. What would be your recommendation for lowering the pH and the sodium levels? I've been looking at using Gypsum and sulfur (90%) to lower ph along with adding organic matter. Bed 2 is mostly clay that I ammended with organic matter and mushroom compost in early 2013 and Bed 10 is purchased "garden" soil from 2013 that is mostly sandy loam, with some compost and peat moss.

Bed 2: Test Company A, Tested 1/9/2014
Soil PH (1:1, H2O) 7.5
Modified Morgan Extractable, ppm
Phosphorus (P) 294
Potassium (K) 441
Calcium (Ca) 7511
Magnesium (Mg) 891
Sulfur (S) 329
Cation Exchange meq/100g 46
Calcium Base Saturation 82
Magnesium Base Saturation 16
Potassium Base Saturation 2

Bed 2: Test Company B, Tested 1/17/2014
PH 7.6
Organic Matter 6.9%
Phosphorus (P) 100
Potassium (K) 345
Calcium (Ca) 5123
Magnesium (Mg) 751
Sodium 191
Cation Exchange meq/100g 33.6
Calcium Base Saturation 76.3
Magnesium Base Saturation 18.6
Potassium Base Saturation 3
Sodium Base Saturation 2.5
Nitrate 21

Bed 10: Test Company A, Tested 1/9/2014
PH 7.4
Modified Morgan Extractable, ppm
Phosphorus (P) 233.8
Potassium (K) 414
Calcium (Ca) 5590
Magnesium (Mg) 687
Sulfur (S) 152.8
Cation Exchange meq/100g 34.6
Calcium Base Saturation 81
Magnesium Base Saturation 16
Potassium Base Saturation 3
Nitrate 20

Bed 10: Test Company B, Tested 1/17/2014
PH 7.6
Organic Matter 5.7%
Phosphorus (P) 115 ppm
Potassium (K) 275
Calcium (Ca) 3211
Magnesium (Mg) 493
Sulfur (S) 78
Cation Exchange meq/100g 21.4
sodium 124
soluble salts .5
Calcium Base Saturation 75
Magnesium Base Saturation 19.2
Potassium Base Saturation 3.3
Nitrate 11
Sodium Base Saturation 2.5

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Hermitian · February 25, 2014

Do not add gypsum -- it is Calcium and the quantity of that in your soil is already viciously high. If your water is pH 8.5 then you need a filter for irrigation.

If those planter beds are raised beds, I would empty them and only use 10% of the existing soil in the new mix. If those are ground-level beds, then I would build raised beds on top of them.

RayR · February 25, 2014

I'm assuming the testing labs recommended gypsum to help leach the sodium and elemental sulfur to lower the PH? I agree that the Calcium is way high, but the Sodium Base Saturation is only 2.5%, which is really OK or am I missing something?

Dutch · February 25, 2014

Per Clemson University link below; “In most cases, the pH can be lowered simply by using fertilizers containing ammonium-N. Ammonium sulfate and sulfur-coated urea are two of the best choices for acidifying soils. Most specialty fertilizers for "acid-loving" plants contain ammonium sulfate or sulfur-coated urea. These are popular sources of nitrogen for azaleas and blueberries.”

Clemson University in South Carolina has some good info on lowering PH. Check this out http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/lowerpH.html

Dutch

PaulF · February 25, 2014

I agree with Richard and Ray. Gypsum would only send your pH higher. My gardens test much higher than yours with pH at about 8.3. I need to add elemental sulphur or aluminum sulphate every other year to bring down the pH. In your case with a salts worry, I would stick to elemental sulphur. It does take some time for the sulphur to begin working and it does become a regular chore since sulphur is always temporary. Soil tends to return to its natural state fairly quickly. I would love to have my ph in the mid 7 range. I would work on your organic levels more than worry about pH. Just my opinion.

RayR · February 25, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulF

I agree with Richard and Ray. Gypsum would only send your pH higher. My gardens test much higher than yours with pH at about 8.3. I need to add elemental sulphur or aluminum sulphate every other year to bring down the pH. In your case with a salts worry, I would stick to elemental sulphur. It does take some time for the sulphur to begin working and it does become a regular chore since sulphur is always temporary. Soil tends to return to its natural state fairly quickly. I would love to have my ph in the mid 7 range. I would work on your organic levels more than worry about pH. Just my opinion.

Paul, it not that gypsum will change the PH, because it won't since it's not a carbonate or bicarbonate. The calcium levels in his soil is already extremely high at 80%+ base saturation, way out of balance with the other major cations. Gypsum would just increase the Ca levels even more.
Hermitian's concern with the high PH of the water is valid since it would have a lot of dissolved carbonates in it, trying to lower the PH of the soil with sulfur and then irrigating with water high is calcium carbonate is self defeating.

Dutch · February 25, 2014

RayR, I agree with you whole heartedly. I know because my well (water) is in a Dolomite Limestone formation http://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/supps/...uifer.htm#sub2. My water PH is quite high and I also have had an ongoing problem with kidney stones. It’s good tasting water, but it has been hard on me and my garden. I now drink bottle spring water and buffer my garden water.
Dutch

frankbenjones · February 26, 2014

Thank you everyone. I will not add gypsum. That was my concern as I did not want to add more calcium. I'm leaning towards using elemental sulfur to lower the ph. I forgot to mention that I am trying to only use organic ferts and ammendments. I got ahold of the local water report for 2012 and have this additional info:

Alkalinity as CaCo3 (ppm) - 95
Calcium (ppm) - 29
Sodium (ppm) - 71
Sulfate (ppm) - 70
Total Dissolved Solids (ppm) - 325

Total Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) - 130
Total hardness as grains per gallon (gpg) - 7.6

I'm thinking that the suggestion for a water filter is spot on. In 2012 I had beautiful tall plants but no fruit set on my tomatoes, which was very frustrating. In 2013 I added elemental sulfur and nothing else as the soil test indicated a high ph and sufficient nutrients. 2013 gave me some pretty good production and generally I was pretty happy but I would like to make improvments. I also noticed that even though I had added sulfur the ph was the same as the previous year so I assumed my water is bringing or keeping the ph up and I think that both Hermitian and RayR are correct and I need to somehow filter my water.

Can anyone recommend a water filter?

Dutch: How do you "buffer my garden water"?

The garden beds are 6x4ft and 1ft high. How much sulfur do you think I can safely add to each bed. I am willing to dig down or mix the sulfur in to the full 1 foot height. I noticed most instructions say to mix it into the top 6 inches. Is there any benefit to mixing it further down?

I'm also planning on adding some organic material: Home made compost and other organic ammendment I can purchase locally. I also have some mushroom compost that I bought about 2 years ago but have hesitated to use it since I've read it can be high in salts.

I also have access to well aged/composted horse manure but read that it can be high in salts too. I can get this for free by the truckload. It crumbles in your hand and appears well composted with no odor.

Lastly assuming I can only add sulfur will the calcium eventually get so high that I will not be able to compensate for it?

Hermitian · February 26, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbenjones

... I got ahold of the local water report for 2012 and have this additional info:

Alkalinity as CaCo3 (ppm) - 95
Calcium (ppm) - 29
Sodium (ppm) - 71
Sulfate (ppm) - 70
Total Dissolved Solids (ppm) - 325

Total Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) - 130
Total hardness as grains per gallon (gpg) - 7.6

That does not look like a report that would accompany a pH of 8.5 -- probably more in the low 7's. The sodium is still a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbenjones

...
Can anyone recommend a water filter?

That's going to depend on water pressure, flow, where you can insert it and how often you are willing to change it. A 500 mesh/sq.in. will make a good improvement.

The suggestion to buffer your garden water is good. This means to have a "fertilizer" injector that introduces acidity (in your case) into the irrigation water. However, this is only going to help if you remove the calcium in your garden beds. Your soil is so rich in Calcium you could sell it as a calcium supplement. It is way beyond the point of leaching out. Adding Sulfur is really not going to help that much: the interplay between the Ca and S will keep most nutrients chemically bound and not available to the plants. For most edible plants, either physically replace it or build raised beds on top of it. On the otherhand, there are some non-fruiting Calfornia natives that would tolerate it just fine; e.g., species of Calfornia Sumacs.

Dutch · February 26, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankbenjones

Dutch: How do you "buffer my garden water"?

What works for me would probably not be right for you. I am growing on a much larger scale then most people here. Hermitian is correct in stating "This means to have a "fertilizer" injector that introduces acidity (in your case) into the irrigation water."
This is difficult to give advice on because there are so many variable. In any case working with acids requires a great deal of knowledge in safe working and handling procedures. Acids must be stored as if they were loaded guns. I use sulfuric acid that is packaged as 35% sulfuric acid 65% water. This is the same strength as battery acid and is extremely dangerous. I farther dilute it with water and add my fertilizer mix before it is “injected” into the garden water. This setup is not for the average home gardener.
Hopefully someone who grows blueberries or something like that, that requires higher levels acid (lower ph) can give you some advice that would work for a home gardener.
Dutch

frankbenjones · March 2, 2014

Hermitian: I think you are right about replacing my soil.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find suitable soil locally to replace what I have in my beds. Locally available soils are high in PH and Calcium. I have found local OMRI compost but they say it’s PH runs 8-8.7 depending on the batch. I will keep looking for a suitable replacement.

I think in the mean time I’ll try to increase my own compost production and amend my beds with elemental sulfur and compost. I am also looking into water filtering options.

February 25, 2014	#1
frankbenjones Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Newbury Park, CA Posts: 51	Looking for advice on adjusting high soil ph I'm trying to improve my raised beds and have had some of them tested. Below are the results from multiple tests for Bed 2 & Bed 10 ( 2 different companys). Our water (hard) pH runs around 8.2 according to the local water utility. All the beds tested for sodium/salts seem to be high. What would be your recommendation for lowering the pH and the sodium levels? I've been looking at using Gypsum and sulfur (90%) to lower ph along with adding organic matter. Bed 2 is mostly clay that I ammended with organic matter and mushroom compost in early 2013 and Bed 10 is purchased "garden" soil from 2013 that is mostly sandy loam, with some compost and peat moss. Bed 2: Test Company A, Tested 1/9/2014 Soil PH (1:1, H2O) 7.5 Modified Morgan Extractable, ppm Phosphorus (P) 294 Potassium (K) 441 Calcium (Ca) 7511 Magnesium (Mg) 891 Sulfur (S) 329 Cation Exchange meq/100g 46 Calcium Base Saturation 82 Magnesium Base Saturation 16 Potassium Base Saturation 2 Bed 2: Test Company B, Tested 1/17/2014 PH 7.6 Organic Matter 6.9% Phosphorus (P) 100 Potassium (K) 345 Calcium (Ca) 5123 Magnesium (Mg) 751 Sodium 191 Cation Exchange meq/100g 33.6 Calcium Base Saturation 76.3 Magnesium Base Saturation 18.6 Potassium Base Saturation 3 Sodium Base Saturation 2.5 Nitrate 21 Bed 10: Test Company A, Tested 1/9/2014 PH 7.4 Modified Morgan Extractable, ppm Phosphorus (P) 233.8 Potassium (K) 414 Calcium (Ca) 5590 Magnesium (Mg) 687 Sulfur (S) 152.8 Cation Exchange meq/100g 34.6 Calcium Base Saturation 81 Magnesium Base Saturation 16 Potassium Base Saturation 3 Nitrate 20 Bed 10: Test Company B, Tested 1/17/2014 PH 7.6 Organic Matter 5.7% Phosphorus (P) 115 ppm Potassium (K) 275 Calcium (Ca) 3211 Magnesium (Mg) 493 Sulfur (S) 78 Cation Exchange meq/100g 21.4 sodium 124 soluble salts .5 Calcium Base Saturation 75 Magnesium Base Saturation 19.2 Potassium Base Saturation 3.3 Nitrate 11 Sodium Base Saturation 2.5 Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

February 25, 2014	#2
Hermitian BANNED Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Vista, CA Posts: 1,112	Do not add gypsum -- it is Calcium and the quantity of that in your soil is already viciously high. If your water is pH 8.5 then you need a filter for irrigation. If those planter beds are raised beds, I would empty them and only use 10% of the existing soil in the new mix. If those are ground-level beds, then I would build raised beds on top of them. __________________ Richard _<\|\|>_

February 25, 2014	#4
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	Per Clemson University link below; “In most cases, the pH can be lowered simply by using fertilizers containing ammonium-N. Ammonium sulfate and sulfur-coated urea are two of the best choices for acidifying soils. Most specialty fertilizers for "acid-loving" plants contain ammonium sulfate or sulfur-coated urea. These are popular sources of nitrogen for azaleas and blueberries.” Clemson University in South Carolina has some good info on lowering PH. Check this out http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/lowerpH.html Dutch Last edited by Dutch; February 25, 2014 at 10:52 AM. Reason: Fix Link

February 25, 2014	#5
PaulF Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brownville, Ne Posts: 3,296	I agree with Richard and Ray. Gypsum would only send your pH higher. My gardens test much higher than yours with pH at about 8.3. I need to add elemental sulphur or aluminum sulphate every other year to bring down the pH. In your case with a salts worry, I would stick to elemental sulphur. It does take some time for the sulphur to begin working and it does become a regular chore since sulphur is always temporary. Soil tends to return to its natural state fairly quickly. I would love to have my ph in the mid 7 range. I would work on your organic levels more than worry about pH. Just my opinion. __________________ there's two things money can't buy; true love and home grown tomatoes.

February 25, 2014	#7
Dutch Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: S.E. Wisconsin Zone 5b Posts: 1,831	RayR, I agree with you whole heartedly. I know because my well (water) is in a Dolomite Limestone formation http://dnr.wi.gov/wnrmag/html/supps/...uifer.htm#sub2. My water PH is quite high and I also have had an ongoing problem with kidney stones. It’s good tasting water, but it has been hard on me and my garden. I now drink bottle spring water and buffer my garden water. Dutch Last edited by Dutch; February 25, 2014 at 01:10 PM.

February 25, 2014	#3
RayR Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Cheektowaga, NY Posts: 2,466	I'm assuming the testing labs recommended gypsum to help leach the sodium and elemental sulfur to lower the PH? I agree that the Calcium is way high, but the Sodium Base Saturation is only 2.5%, which is really OK or am I missing something?

February 26, 2014	#8
frankbenjones Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Newbury Park, CA Posts: 51	Thank you everyone. I will not add gypsum. That was my concern as I did not want to add more calcium. I'm leaning towards using elemental sulfur to lower the ph. I forgot to mention that I am trying to only use organic ferts and ammendments. I got ahold of the local water report for 2012 and have this additional info: Alkalinity as CaCo3 (ppm) - 95 Calcium (ppm) - 29 Sodium (ppm) - 71 Sulfate (ppm) - 70 Total Dissolved Solids (ppm) - 325 Total Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) - 130 Total hardness as grains per gallon (gpg) - 7.6 I'm thinking that the suggestion for a water filter is spot on. In 2012 I had beautiful tall plants but no fruit set on my tomatoes, which was very frustrating. In 2013 I added elemental sulfur and nothing else as the soil test indicated a high ph and sufficient nutrients. 2013 gave me some pretty good production and generally I was pretty happy but I would like to make improvments. I also noticed that even though I had added sulfur the ph was the same as the previous year so I assumed my water is bringing or keeping the ph up and I think that both Hermitian and RayR are correct and I need to somehow filter my water. Can anyone recommend a water filter? Dutch: How do you "buffer my garden water"? The garden beds are 6x4ft and 1ft high. How much sulfur do you think I can safely add to each bed. I am willing to dig down or mix the sulfur in to the full 1 foot height. I noticed most instructions say to mix it into the top 6 inches. Is there any benefit to mixing it further down? I'm also planning on adding some organic material: Home made compost and other organic ammendment I can purchase locally. I also have some mushroom compost that I bought about 2 years ago but have hesitated to use it since I've read it can be high in salts. I also have access to well aged/composted horse manure but read that it can be high in salts too. I can get this for free by the truckload. It crumbles in your hand and appears well composted with no odor. Lastly assuming I can only add sulfur will the calcium eventually get so high that I will not be able to compensate for it?

March 2, 2014	#11
frankbenjones Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Newbury Park, CA Posts: 51	Hermitian: I think you are right about replacing my soil. Unfortunately I have not been able to find suitable soil locally to replace what I have in my beds. Locally available soils are high in PH and Calcium. I have found local OMRI compost but they say it’s PH runs 8-8.7 depending on the batch. I will keep looking for a suitable replacement. I think in the mean time I’ll try to increase my own compost production and amend my beds with elemental sulfur and compost. I am also looking into water filtering options.