Is our soil fixable? - Page 2

Worth1 · March 2, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by bughunter99

Mud that is a foot deep is extreme and I would take a pass on this property if given the option. This is likely to be just one of the issues you are going to encounter with a house in a low lying bowel including settling, flooding, mold, mosquitoes not to mention the garden issues.

Also foundation problems.

Worth

Doug9345 · March 3, 2014

As well as every chemical your higher neighbors use is going to be on your property whether you like it or not. You may have found the reason that the place is cheap.

linzelu100 · March 3, 2014

Yes this is all true points to consider. We started looking elsewhere... Just to be on the safe side. Seeing what else is out there.

oldasrocks · April 2, 2014

One tomato in a pot is better than 100 drowned tomatoes in the soil.

Gypsum will improve the clay to drain properly.

Visit your local County Conservation to ge help with growing stuff in the area.

Show your husband a estimate to haul in 47 truckloads of dirt then ask him if he wants to move?

HydroExplorer · April 29, 2014

Look into hugelkultur. It's a process where you stack wood and then cover that with good soil. You'd want to bury a nitrogen source in your hugl beds the first year because the decomposition process will consume a lot of nitrogen. I just started my first huglkultur bed this year because my soil is heavy clay. I've just started the hugl bed so I can't tell you whether it solved the problem or not. I'm just passing the information along in hopes that it helps you.

The nice thing about huglkultur is that it will help you control the amount of water that reaches your plants roots while simultaneously eliminating the problems you're having with heavy clay. In time it should create rich soil that you can use for many years. By the way, you can do this method with wood chips as well if you have access to them. I think logs work better but I've seen some pretty amazing results with wood chips too.

In your situation a huglkultur bed would look like the large, long mounds worth mentioned but they would have a whole bunch of logs and sticks inside them.

You may want to see if you can plant some deep rooters like comfrey to recover some of the nutrients that are undoubtedly coming down into your property via runoff. Comfrey, stinging nettle and yarrow will send roots really deep into the soil and pull back nutrients that have been inaccessible to plants for a long time. Some people will actually brew a tea using the foleage of these plants to spray on their plants (foliar feed). These plants also act as compost accelerators.

Another option would be to use kratky method hydroponics. This allows you to grow completely outside of the restrictions of soil without using electricity (cheap). As long as you keep your nutrient solution dark to prevent algae growth you should be able to grow some food on any soil. I'm doing this for the first time this year too. So far my I'm finding Kratky to be both easy and effective.

I've read that biochar is capable of absorbing a lot of nutrients, bacteria and water. It may be possible to use biochar to soak up the excess water you're dealing with but it might fail too. Biochar is really light and may just wash away with the deluge of water you're dealing with. You could embed biochar inside huglkultur beds to keep it from washing away.

I think you can fix any type of soil with the right methods. The trick is finding information on how to fix your soil. Your case sounds like a pretty extreme one but I suspect you are actually sitting on a really good spot if you can control the water.

AlittleSalt · August 15, 2014

I chose not to look at the replies in this post so that I could offer a different thought/idea.

The soil I grow my gardens in is/was called, "Blow Sand" by a lot of people in my area. It is a silt soil that covers extremely heavy clay and is basically useless. When the wind blows, everything gets covered in dry, powdery, orange-rust colored nasty dirt. My father put down old carpeting outside just to help keep down the dust.

It can FLOOD here and you can walk and drive on it like it was concrete.

Adding soil like what I have could answer a lot of questions for you. It is sold as fill dirt in many areas.

Keiththibodeaux · August 15, 2014

This is not uncommon in Louisiana. Just raised the bed 6 inch minimum, to 12 inch maximum and you are in business. Use resistant disease resistant varieties of tomatoes. No magic here, really.

Redbaron · August 15, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

I chose not to look at the replies in this post so that I could offer a different thought/idea.

The soil I grow my gardens in is/was called, "Blow Sand" by a lot of people in my area. It is a silt soil that covers extremely heavy clay and is basically useless. When the wind blows, everything gets covered in dry, powdery, orange-rust colored nasty dirt. My father put down old carpeting outside just to help keep down the dust.

It can FLOOD here and you can walk and drive on it like it was concrete.

Adding soil like what I have could answer a lot of questions for you. It is sold as fill dirt in many areas.

That pretty much describes what I am growing in with my new plot I just leased. Yet I am getting a crop and the "red concrete" is beginning to change into soil right before my eyes.

Tracydr · August 15, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worth1

Do like they do in the coastal plains.

Plant your crops up on large long mounds/hills.

This will keep the plants from getting water logged.

Worth

I did this with fruit trees in OK because I had the worst pure clay imaginable. No organic matter at a
L. When they were doing the foundation for my house, I had them pile up dirt into long mounds in various areas. I then spent about half a year dumping 1 big wheelbarrow load from cleaning the horse stalls each day on top of each mound. There was about a foot of stall cleanings all over each mound. Planted my peaches and some other trees on the mounds and they did amazing.
For the OP, can you find a stable and haul some stall cleanings ( horse manure and wood shavings) home? Also, I would certainly do raised beds or mounds, which should do a good job giving your gardens good drainage, assuming you raise high enough by either buying dirt or digging up your own. You may want to run a French drain in the yard, too.
We had flood irrigation in AZ and with my raised beds, the gardens got a good drink but also drained well so that they weren't in standing water. The rest of my yard had such poor drainage, what we call caliche, that water would stand for 2 days. The trees liked it but not smaller plants.

linzelu100 · August 15, 2014

This year- that hasn't been much water- so the drainage hasn't been an issue. Everything is growing so good. Best tasting tomatoes ever.

I guess I was really concerned because it seemed disastrous last year. I'm really not sure about this place though. The floors don't match up in this house. Like the two sides of the house are falling down away from eachother, leaving the floors at A line angles. (Hope this makes sense).

I think for the money the owners want (they maybe crazy)- that we could find a more ideal location. I just don't know what "ideal loactions" are. I have never been a farmer nor did I grow up around them. I don't know what someone would look for. We like it here in the mountains. We'd like to be in the valley, with some sloping hill.

AlittleSalt · August 15, 2014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redbaron

That pretty much describes what I am growing in with my new plot I just leased. Yet I am getting a crop and the "red concrete" is beginning to change into soil right before my eyes.

I double dug in Fall fallen / dried oak leaves twice a year starting in 2011, and that blowsand in the garden is looking really good now. I guess it just needed some organic structure?

AlittleSalt · August 16, 2014

linzelu100, it sounds like that house has foundation issues.

I've lived on flat ground without trees, and am currently living on the side of a hill with 80%
Oak, 15 % Elm, and 5% Juniper and all else trees everywhere.

The flat ground places were okay. Beautiful sunrises and sunsets. The ground grew nice gardens for my father, and I remember it was always way too windy there.

Here where we live on the hill with lots of trees - it is paradise to me. I never see the sun rise or set because of the trees. When the wind is high everywhere else around -- here it is comfortable because the trees help calm it down some. Putting in a garden on the side of a hill was umm different because of many reasons. Two examples are things I am doing this week because we are expanding our garden:

The fence surrounding a garden on near flat ground is often built level when possible because it looks good. On a hill, a fence actually looks better when it follows the lay-of-the-land. My garden is an example because it is on a hill. The front post on the higher elevated area would be 6' high, and to keep the fence level, the back post would have to be nearly 10' high.

The other thing is on the lower end of a garden on a hill, you might need to use garden terracing to keep the soil from washing out. I have to.

March 3, 2014	#18
linzelu100 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Virginia Posts: 447	Yes this is all true points to consider. We started looking elsewhere... Just to be on the safe side. Seeing what else is out there. __________________ Lindsey

August 15, 2014	#25
linzelu100 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Virginia Posts: 447	This year- that hasn't been much water- so the drainage hasn't been an issue. Everything is growing so good. Best tasting tomatoes ever. I guess I was really concerned because it seemed disastrous last year. I'm really not sure about this place though. The floors don't match up in this house. Like the two sides of the house are falling down away from eachother, leaving the floors at A line angles. (Hope this makes sense). I think for the money the owners want (they maybe crazy)- that we could find a more ideal location. I just don't know what "ideal loactions" are. I have never been a farmer nor did I grow up around them. I don't know what someone would look for. We like it here in the mountains. We'd like to be in the valley, with some sloping hill. __________________ Lindsey

March 3, 2014	#17
Doug9345 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Durhamville,NY Posts: 2,706	As well as every chemical your higher neighbors use is going to be on your property whether you like it or not. You may have found the reason that the place is cheap.

April 2, 2014	#19
oldasrocks Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Lebanon, Mo Posts: 59	One tomato in a pot is better than 100 drowned tomatoes in the soil. Gypsum will improve the clay to drain properly. Visit your local County Conservation to ge help with growing stuff in the area. Show your husband a estimate to haul in 47 truckloads of dirt then ask him if he wants to move?

April 29, 2014	#20
HydroExplorer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 132	Look into hugelkultur. It's a process where you stack wood and then cover that with good soil. You'd want to bury a nitrogen source in your hugl beds the first year because the decomposition process will consume a lot of nitrogen. I just started my first huglkultur bed this year because my soil is heavy clay. I've just started the hugl bed so I can't tell you whether it solved the problem or not. I'm just passing the information along in hopes that it helps you. The nice thing about huglkultur is that it will help you control the amount of water that reaches your plants roots while simultaneously eliminating the problems you're having with heavy clay. In time it should create rich soil that you can use for many years. By the way, you can do this method with wood chips as well if you have access to them. I think logs work better but I've seen some pretty amazing results with wood chips too. In your situation a huglkultur bed would look like the large, long mounds worth mentioned but they would have a whole bunch of logs and sticks inside them. You may want to see if you can plant some deep rooters like comfrey to recover some of the nutrients that are undoubtedly coming down into your property via runoff. Comfrey, stinging nettle and yarrow will send roots really deep into the soil and pull back nutrients that have been inaccessible to plants for a long time. Some people will actually brew a tea using the foleage of these plants to spray on their plants (foliar feed). These plants also act as compost accelerators. Another option would be to use kratky method hydroponics. This allows you to grow completely outside of the restrictions of soil without using electricity (cheap). As long as you keep your nutrient solution dark to prevent algae growth you should be able to grow some food on any soil. I'm doing this for the first time this year too. So far my I'm finding Kratky to be both easy and effective. I've read that biochar is capable of absorbing a lot of nutrients, bacteria and water. It may be possible to use biochar to soak up the excess water you're dealing with but it might fail too. Biochar is really light and may just wash away with the deluge of water you're dealing with. You could embed biochar inside huglkultur beds to keep it from washing away. I think you can fix any type of soil with the right methods. The trick is finding information on how to fix your soil. Your case sounds like a pretty extreme one but I suspect you are actually sitting on a really good spot if you can control the water.

August 15, 2014	#21
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	I chose not to look at the replies in this post so that I could offer a different thought/idea. The soil I grow my gardens in is/was called, "Blow Sand" by a lot of people in my area. It is a silt soil that covers extremely heavy clay and is basically useless. When the wind blows, everything gets covered in dry, powdery, orange-rust colored nasty dirt. My father put down old carpeting outside just to help keep down the dust. It can FLOOD here and you can walk and drive on it like it was concrete. Adding soil like what I have could answer a lot of questions for you. It is sold as fill dirt in many areas.

August 15, 2014	#22
Keiththibodeaux Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Louisiana Posts: 587	This is not uncommon in Louisiana. Just raised the bed 6 inch minimum, to 12 inch maximum and you are in business. Use resistant disease resistant varieties of tomatoes. No magic here, really.

August 16, 2014	#27
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	linzelu100, it sounds like that house has foundation issues. I've lived on flat ground without trees, and am currently living on the side of a hill with 80% Oak, 15 % Elm, and 5% Juniper and all else trees everywhere. The flat ground places were okay. Beautiful sunrises and sunsets. The ground grew nice gardens for my father, and I remember it was always way too windy there. Here where we live on the hill with lots of trees - it is paradise to me. I never see the sun rise or set because of the trees. When the wind is high everywhere else around -- here it is comfortable because the trees help calm it down some. Putting in a garden on the side of a hill was umm different because of many reasons. Two examples are things I am doing this week because we are expanding our garden: The fence surrounding a garden on near flat ground is often built level when possible because it looks good. On a hill, a fence actually looks better when it follows the lay-of-the-land. My garden is an example because it is on a hill. The front post on the higher elevated area would be 6' high, and to keep the fence level, the back post would have to be nearly 10' high. The other thing is on the lower end of a garden on a hill, you might need to use garden terracing to keep the soil from washing out. I have to.